Big Bear History
Socalman, Thu Oct 04 2007, 10:13PM

Way back in the 1950's I recall a friend of my father's taking us up to place on the south side of BBC to what was either a WWII POW camp or relocation camp. I think it was about a 1/2 mile south of Big Bear Blvd. ( I was only about 6 or 7 then). I wanted to contact Tom Core to see what he knew about it. Of course I can't do that now. Any old timers know anything about it?

Re: Big Bear History
Christopher, Thu Oct 04 2007, 10:23PM

scm... I only know of two internment camps in CA; Manzanar in the Owens Valley and Tule Lake near the Oregon border.

Re: Big Bear History
bc, Fri Oct 05 2007, 08:35AM

I heard that Bill Mann, aka Short Fuse also has passed away. Signed copies of all his books, EXCEPT the very last one which was on Big Bear, were/are available at Edelweiss. So there's no confusion, his last book is available in Edelweiss, but none that are signed.

I get waves of sadness as each of these folks passes on. Most folks have already probably forgotten Kendall Stone ... I wonder if his wife is still with us. Mr. Stone was part of the Valley history, and was way too young to die, IMHO. I have a copy of his book "Foxsong", but I think most of his history is in the Grizzly articles. He had a unique perspective, and I believe embodied the rugged, independent, forthright, nature of early Valley settlers.

Tom Core's last book was not published. Someone needs to step in. Folks gave him stuff.

Re: Big Bear History
Socalman, Fri Oct 05 2007, 12:05PM

I didn't know Tom Core had another book. Perhaps the Grizzly would be interested in publishing it?

Re: Big Bear History
Bmatheny, Sat Oct 06 2007, 01:56PM

socalman,

It might be my friends place at the end of Mitchell in BBC. It's spring/well fed and has an old building I've been told used to be many things.

When I first moved here, my other neighbors called it the "brothel". Then I heard the army used it. Then the current owner told me it was used for hunting dogs.

But it's basically a row of stalls, each about 8x10 or 10x10. I think there are four of them.

Anyway, I don't know how old that building is, but just a guess??

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 06 2007, 02:36PM

It was at the end of Sawmill. Just past sugarloaf blvd I never saw any buildings there but for a long time you could see where it was. Know little else about it. Never seemed like a good place to me. It seems to have been kept a secret, as this is the first I have heard that anyone knew it existed.
They also had a R&R area for servicemen where the Marine base is now. It was closed shortly after the war and dismanteled. Then reinstated in the 60's.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 06 2007, 03:12PM

Kendall Stone should not be forgotten, part of the Talmage family. Rode horse as a cowboy from Hesperia to Joshua tree. Was part of the D day landing. One of the early deputies in the valley when SO closed and if something came up you called him at home. Served as under sherriff untill he retired. Wife's name was Mary Rose. She was living up north last I heard. I think their son John still spends time in Big Bear. I think he may have 3 books. Plus the most acurate history in the Grizzly. He also wrote a testimoney to Mary Rose that he sent to friends.
Definetly went to soon but doing what he loved most.

I have a question I have not been able to find the answer too. In the next panel There is a picture of an enormous building under construction. It was on Pine Knot above the apartment complex. Located on the old Pine Knot lodge property. Pcture was taken late 30's /early 50's Building did not last long. I have not been able to find anyone who saw it.
The packed snow is a toboggon run that started on the hill above Cherry lane at the south end of Pine Knot.
Dennis




Re: Big Bear History
JohnnyT (K7JNT), Sun Oct 07 2007, 03:11PM

bills grandson wrote ...

The packed snow is a toboggon run that started on the hill above Cherry lane at the south end of Pine Knot.

I wasn't aware that there was a quonset hut at the base of the toboggan run. I have a few old postcards of this toboggan run and apparently it was also a ski jump at the time as well. I have some postcard photos of skiers taking off on the pictured structure and then landing in the toboggan track. I think these jumpers were a part of the early ski club (the Viking Ski Club?) but I'm not sure.


Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 07 2007, 05:03PM

The hut they were building was enormous. It may have been the theatre that they had there for awhile, but I can't find anyone who remembers it. I am sure it didn't last very long.
You are right about the jump. I will have to look more but I'm not sure if they existed at the same time. The jump was about where the little shack was. It seems like it may have been alongside of it.
My dad jumped there in the 30's There was another jump behind the Elk's club. That was there untill mid 60's but not used. It was less then 2 feet wide.
There was also a ski area up off Clark's grade. There is still a little evidence of it if you know where to look. Tire rim nailed in a tree as a overhead line for a rope tow. I have never seen a picture of this spot.
I'll see if I have a picture of the jump you mentioned. I think I may have one.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Lumber Jill, Sun Oct 07 2007, 05:52PM

if you guys could, please load these pics into the gallery as well...so that they stick around forever rather than disappearing when a topic fades away!
I created a new gallery for them [Click Here]

thx!


Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 07 2007, 06:16PM

yes mother

by the way did you put the acorns in the fridge?

Or are you gonna let nature do that?

Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Sun Oct 07 2007, 07:28PM

That is a cool photo Dennis, I had never seen photos of the toboggan runs in Big Bear. Just a thought could the building have anything to do with the trout hatchery’s or a film stage?. Government would be the only people to lose a building of that size and still not be crying about it in Big Bear today.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 07 2007, 07:51PM

It was private property I'm, pretty sure Pine Knot lodge was still there. Only thing I could think was either the teater or a barn to be that large. It is in the area of their old stabel
I have a couple more of the old lynn lift area some with Cliford lynn in it. One of Sid Sutherlands tractor and trailer. He had an old cat and would take skiers up from town and let them off near the "new" lift. They had a poma lift up there before they put the chair in below.

Dennis
There were a couple of postcards made of the same area.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Sun Oct 07 2007, 07:55PM

Sutherland Lumber? Was there a Jimmy Sutherland or a Tow service AAA ? I can almost remember that they had a gas station? now

Re: Big Bear History
Lumber Jill, Sun Oct 07 2007, 07:57PM

bills grandson wrote ...

yes mother

by the way did you put the acorns in the fridge?

Or are you gonna let nature do that?

Dennis



i'm afraid mother nature is going to have to take care of the chilling of the acorns...i can't find the room for anything in my fridge!

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 07 2007, 08:39PM

I knew a Jimmy Southern

I think Sid Sutherland had two daughters.
When he was young he worked with my grandfather building trails, and campgrounds for the Forest Service. I think he raised silver fox's, Had the Chevron station in town that Ade Bos ownded later. Was partner in the arcade on Pine Knot.
You mighht remember him when he worked at Riff's in the 70's & 80's. Very nice guy, and one of the last of the old timers that I knew.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Clint, Sun Oct 07 2007, 09:06PM

I REMEMBER SID AND HIS WIFE OPEL(SHE PASSED ON IN THE LATE 80'S) AND SID WAS STILL GOING STRONG LAST THING I KNEW.THEY LIVED OFF OF COUGAR LANE. SID WAS ALWAYS SO NICE.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 07 2007, 09:56PM

didn't know his wife, I really didn't get to know him untill she passesd. He was a great storyteller, and told me lots of things about the old days. Always wanted to take him Quail hunting one more time. Everyone who has a history should write it down. Few do and so much is lost. It was actualy Sonoma but I had to get a map, I never knew most of the street names. But you had it right.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 07 2007, 10:28PM

update on the POW camp from someone who should know. So now there may have never been a POW camp. If anyone can find out different, please post here is what he wrote

"The camp in sawmil canyon was a CCC camp during the depression. Sometime during the war the camp was taken over by the Marines as a rest & rehalibation camp & remained as that till sometime in the 50s. During the 60s it was sold to a realestate developer, & when he went to subdevide it & cut some trees down all hell broke loose, & the development was postponed. The camp property was located on the so. west corner of sugarloaf blvd & Sawmill canyon & covered about a half sq mi. from that corner.
No japs No Germans."


Re: Big Bear History
Clint, Sun Oct 07 2007, 11:00PM

bills grandson wrote ...

didn't know his wife, I really didn't get to know him untill she passesd. He was a great storyteller, and told me lots of things about the old days. Always wanted to take him Quail hunting one more time. Everyone who has a history should write it down. Few do and so much is lost. It was actualy Sonoma but I had to get a map, I never knew most of the street names. But you had it right.
Dennis


YEAH, I COULDN'T REMEMBER THAT STREET NAME,BUT I KNEW IT INTERSECTED WITH COUGAR...HE WAS A GREAT GUY


Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Mon Oct 08 2007, 07:40AM

Bingo that is it the Sutherland Arcade on Pineknot, Bowmans had the arcade next to Chads Restaurant with the shooting gallery and Mae and her husband the ex pro boxer had Palace arcade in the old Safeway building. I remembered Sid working for Riffenburgh Lumber after I got off last night, along with Mac McAlester. Sid lived on the SW corner of Rathbone & Douglas. I remember Ade Boss had the Chevron in front of Big Johns welding across from Halls and then Harris did he have the fuel depot next to Bakers auto to the east of Community Church also. And oh yes Jimmy Southern I seem to remember he was wild. Bakers auto parts. It was Moongems that had the tow truck service and Boots and Edee with the Taxi. That was always an e-ticket ride with Boots in the old checker cab. Seems I still remember Sutherland name on the old Philips 66 on the bottom of Red Ant Hill or maybe it was just on the chevron.

Re: Big Bear History
Ernest T. Bass, Mon Oct 08 2007, 07:49AM

my sister-in-laws family use to own Stillwells way back and I'm trying to get some of her photos and have her write some of the storys down.

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Mon Oct 08 2007, 07:53AM

Funny as soon as you say the word Stillwells. Bang the spark goes off and we have ignitions

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Mon Oct 08 2007, 05:52PM

Here is a map to help you guys find things. The problem is the map is of Bear Lake and the town on the south shore is Pine Lake and there are no highways, but you can cut across the lake in a few spots. You just can not get there from here



Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Mon Oct 08 2007, 06:03PM

Not history today but some day. Here is a photo of a new truck a 1977, 30 years ago. Look down the road in town. Fred’s Ski and Sports the Medical Building.



Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Mon Oct 08 2007, 06:05PM

One more shot



Re: Big Bear History
Clint, Mon Oct 08 2007, 07:11PM

NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO DIG OUT ALL MY OLD FAMILY PHOTOS.....MY FAMILY HAS A HUGE HISTORY UP THERE GOING BACK TO THE 20'S

Re: Big Bear History
©ammy, Mon Oct 08 2007, 07:22PM

Jerry B wrote ...

Here is a map to help you guys find things. The problem is the map is of Bear Lake and the town on the south shore is Pine Lake and there are no highways, but you can cut across the lake in a few spots. You just can not get there from here




Thanks for sharing that! Any idea when this map is from ?!

Re: Big Bear History
Around The Lake, Mon Oct 08 2007, 08:46PM

I aways thought we all make History everyday we live in this great town we call Big Bear.

Re: Big Bear History
melvin, Sat Oct 13 2007, 02:35PM

ok i got the story from mom
gill and eunice faktor owned the bowling alley that she thinks is now the theater, he traded that for the highlander restaurantthen traded that for the blue front bar in los angeles.. this was all from the late 40's to mid 50's... also her cousin went to high school up there thinks he might have gradusted around 1949 or so (ron faktor)

another uncle, herman cook, owned a pool hall by the lake but she doesnt remember the name of it..

they both paid off sheriff kendell so they could have slot machines but when the new sheriff came to town he put a stop to it..

shes trying to find pics from then ill post them if she does

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 03:30PM

very interesting .
The bowling alley she spoke of was just to the East of the theatre.
I think it was six lanes They hired pin boys to reset the pins and roll the ball back. Very rustic..
When the Chevron was modernzed They tore down most of the building and the back portion became the tire repair shop for the station.
The theare was the old Navajo ballroom. Basic floorplan was about the same as what became the bowling alley latter on. It sat empty for many years and had the original furnishings in the building.
That is not to be confused with the Navajo saloon, restaurant and apartments across the street.
The bowing alley was very popular untill one night they were refinnishing the lanes and there was a bad fire. I believed 2 or 3 of the workers were killed. Not sure if they rebuilt it again or not.
After the Theare to the west caught fire (there were a lot of fires). They built the theatre which is there now.
Can't think of the ladies name who owned the Highlander after your mother but they owned it for many years. I hope someone can come up with her name.
I don't remember the pool hall she mentioned. I think the old bowling alley may have had a tablel or two. The new bowling alley had two tabels. After Reedy's market moved there were tabels in that building (next to McNeal's trading post).
There were tabels in the old American Legion building at meadow park.
Never heard about paying for slot machines, At that time I think FFloyd Tidwell was still up there and Kendahl worked under him. If that is true the money would have had to go much further then that.
There were definetly slot machines and at one time some other games as well. Many local bussines's had them and were able to hide them when the news came of a raid. I would think they were all gone by 1948.
Be sure to get the pictures up. As well as any stories you can learn. She is a valuable resource.
On a related subject I just came across a new site (for me).
Much of the information we have today is from the photographs. Locals didn't have a lot of time or money. The local photographers took many interesting pictures. Other then these the two best sources were B.G. Holmes, who began coming to the valley before 1900 and taking great pictures at about that time. The other was Burton Frasher who began printing high quality postcards. All originaly in black and white. Many were colorized later on. He took pictures from almost every angle of the valley.
His shop was in Pomona and I didn't know how extensive his travels were.
Pomona public Library has over 7,000 of his pictures available online. They are not sorted and not the highest quality, but they are there.
He took picture through the West from New Mexico to the Oregon border.
His reason for begining his "hobby" was to pay for his fishing so there are many pictures of California lakes. Also Indian country in Arozona and New Mexico. The Palm Springs area, and Las Vegas are also well covered.
It is esay to see that he traded pictures for lodging and stores that sold his cards also ended up in many of the pictures. A lot of his pictures he had his car, himself and his family in as well.
If you just want San Bernardino mountains I would start at the top and work down. There are only two local pictures in the first 100 pages.
Save your position to favorites once in awhile as it is hard to move around. I have original postcards of many of the cards and will trade quality scans for anybody that has some to trade. Eventualy I would like to make them available. Be sure you are prepared to invest some time as it is hard to stop.
There are other collections at their ste but I still have 60 pages left here.
Be sure to thank the library for providing the site. there is also a bio of Mr. Frasher. There are also several other postcard companies, but I haven't found them yet.
[Click Here]

Dennis



Re: Big Bear History
Swilda, Sat Oct 13 2007, 03:53PM

geez, i only go back af far as the blue ox on the blvd by the airport. lotsa good friday night dinners there.

Re: Big Bear History
melvin, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:04PM

mom did mention that it was 6 lanes... and she said you could see the highlander from the pool hall (right up the hill) and the pool hall was on a street that went by the lake... ill keep picking her brain

Re: Big Bear History
melvin, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:07PM

oh ya and all of my family was off the hill by 55 when my folks got married... uncle herman went to san diego and opened a few wolkswagon dealerships

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:20PM

sure can't place the pool hall, which direction from the Hihlander?
I bet everybody laughed at Uncle Herman for making such a bonehead move.
Probably laughed all the way to the bank
I applied for a pin setter job when I was a bout 11. Can't understand why they didn't hire me. It was a very interesting looking place to a little kid. Would have been after her time. Should have stayed at the highlander that's about when it was going good. I think the next person's name started with S. I can't think of her name, she moved to the desert and passsed away about ten years ago I bet your mom knew my dad when she was up there.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:23PM

Swilda
Blue Ox started out as O'brian's pet store. I don't think I ate there untill it changed hands, can't think of what it was called then.
That's long enough where you are "almost" a local.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Deb Doodah, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:29PM

Great find Dennis. I did a search for Big Bear and it came back with 117 pictures. The community market has not changed since 1946.



Re: Big Bear History
melvin, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:30PM

mom never lived there just uncle gil and herman... gil had to borrow money to get off the hill cause he was so broke!!
mom said you could go outside and look up the hill from the pool hall and see the highlander...

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:35PM

wish I'd have taken the time to look it up that way, but I've almost seen all that are there. I have a bunch that are not on there of his, but I still have a few pages to go. There are definetly some interesting pictures. I think the Community market is the only one that is still the same as it was excepts for the pumps. Some of the Fawnskin stuff hasen't changed much, but almost all the lodges are gone now. Brown Bear gift shop is still the same, except for a facelift.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Deb Doodah, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:43PM

Towards the end I found several pictures of Treasure Island too. There was a bridge back in the 40's. Not sure if it is still there or not.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:49PM

not that far yet, there was a dridge on the island, more for looks then anything else, don't think there was one to the island. During the 50's and 60's lake was low enough you could walk out all the time. I have coied over 150, but I am doing all San Bernardino mtn.'s Will be interested in seeing if I don't have those already, everybody had postcards of T.I. Almost all from one of about three angels. lots of Cedar Lake, and Union station in town. There are a ton of Death valley back then too.
I have about 8 of his with aerial views, they are really great to see what it looked like back then.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
, Sat Oct 13 2007, 04:53PM

I remember a pool hall. Just can't picture where it was. DARN IT I remember the Highlander. Fancy folks went in there. Chads was for the scum bags. and Bogarts. Wasn't the pool hall at Halls Chicken?

Re: Big Bear History
melvin, Sat Oct 13 2007, 05:01PM

ok my mistake mom said you could see the lake from the pool hall not the highlander... is the highlander still there?

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 05:05PM

Took me a lifetime time to realize a drunk is a drunk. There really isn't a class distinction.
I think Hall's chicken was built as hall's chicken.
I'm kind of thinking it must have been where they built Robin Hood. There also was a building on the slope to the SE of highlander but it went to another one of them fires.
Nothing else would have been large enough for a pool hall.
Things changed so much over the years, it was hard to keep up.
Dennis
this is the best picture I have found on the Frasher site so far but not BB



Re: Big Bear History
bc, Sat Oct 13 2007, 06:26PM

That looks like the most photographed view in Yosemite, famous, just as you enter the park from I think the South entrance. No?

Re: Big Bear History
©ammy, Sat Oct 13 2007, 06:56PM

bc - that's what it looks like to me...

Re: Big Bear History
Moose Drool, Sat Oct 13 2007, 08:15PM

Yes, BC & Cammy.

Re: Big Bear History
, Sat Oct 13 2007, 08:28PM

ÖmelbÖ wrote ...

ok my mistake mom said you could see the lake from the pool hall not the highlander... is the highlander still there?

The Highlander is now Evergreens. I don't know if they are open for business.

Re: Big Bear History
Deb Doodah, Sat Oct 13 2007, 08:30PM

You got me started now Bill's Grandson. I am searching the net for BB history. I came across the Knickerbocker Mansion website which has some great photo's of your grandparents and the home they built. It looks as if the current owners have lovingly restored it.

[Click Here]

Re: Big Bear History
JohnnyT (K7JNT), Sat Oct 13 2007, 08:56PM

bills grandson wrote ...

Much of the information we have today is from the photographs. Locals didn't have a lot of time or money. The local photographers took many interesting pictures. Other then these the two best sources were B.G. Holmes, who began coming to the valley before 1900 and taking great pictures at about that time. The other was Burton Frasher who began printing high quality postcards. All originaly in black and white. Many were colorized later on. He took pictures from almost every angle of the valley.

Thanks for the info on Burton Frasher, Dennis. I wasn't aware of his donated collection at the Pomona Library. I have a couple dozen Frasher postcards, including a couple that are not listed in their on-line archive. I'll contact them to see if they would like them.

Yes, Frasher was very well traveled in the West and took many photographs in the Valley in the 30s and 40s. A couple of decades before Frasher, there were a couple more influential photographers. The most well known was Wright M. Pierce. He was an ornithologist from Claremont who also had a photographic studio up here. I'm not sure if photography was just a hobby to him, or if he became a full-time photographer, but he was very prolific in documenting the valley. I'm also not sure of the exact dates of his studio, but I would guess 1915 to 1930 based on his photos. Another earlier prolific photographer of the West was John Putnam (c. 1880s to 1930s) and later his son, Arion. His Putnam and Valentine studio was based in downtown LA, and he took many photographs in and around the Big Bear Valley. Later, he had a falling out with his partner, C.O. Valentine, and his later work is labeled just Putnam Studios. Finally, there is one more photographer whose work is simply marked as "Barry". He took many wonderful photographs around 1915-1920, but I know nothing about him. If anyone knows anything about him, please share.

Some of my favorite photographs from these gentlemen involved grizzly bear (yup, we had them), the lake with live trees still in them (just after the new dam was completed), and old cars chugging up Clark's Grade. When I have some time, I'll scan and post a few.

Re: Big Bear History
Moose Drool, Sat Oct 13 2007, 09:20PM

In the early '60's my wife taught 1st grade down at the American Legion hut with Mildred VonNorman and Eileen Graham ... school district classrooms in short supply and they used the Meadow Park facilities.

Also, my parents ran the Robinhood's kitchen & bar (and in the summers also ran the Goldmine restaurant under Bill Strickland), and I remember the Highlander was run by the Engles family at that time. We lived on Brownie Lane, 2 houses down from them and two houses up from Bob & Shirley Woods, the owner of the Grizzly newspaper ... Laura Woods was in my class at BBHS.

Whoa ... such a long time ago ... and so far away.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 09:33PM

I liked it better as it was, but they have gone a long way toward bringing it back to what it was. Former owners had covered many of the walls with drywall.
I haven't been inside since the day we left it.
My room was Cedar 1. It was also my fathers when he was young. We didn't live in it untill the late 60's. It was extreamly cold and impossible to keep warm. The walls were insulated with sawdust when it was built and over the years it had all packed down.
The furnishings are definetly not in our style but I guess that's what B&B people expect.
BB history is very interesting and there is lots of it out there.
Of the things that I know for sure, the things I have read about are 30 percent wrong.
Once something is written it is accepted and errors are repeated and magnified.
One of the earliest historians was a 16 year old girl who while in high school wrote a comprehensive history. I have it on good authority that a lot of the stories of Holcomb Valley were told to her by someone who would streach the facts quite a bit.
I would think everything she wrote of her time would be accurate. Her family was involved with the valley from early on.
The trouble id the people who were involved kept few journal's.
I will include a picture of the girl when she was in high school and a picture of my grandfather in the house as it was.
her name was Bea Pedder.
Dennis





Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 09:44PM

That is so cool that there are people who have these histories available. Try to get what you can and write it down and get it on here. We can compare memories and come up with something that fits. I have found that several people will have different memories of the same event.
You must have lived next door to Fred Bowan, who owned the sporting goods store. At the west end the meyeres family. Very good neighborhood back then.
I am trying to find out if the site will allow me to upload all my Postcards. It would be great if we can get a good source of photo's and stories going.
There is little written about the 40's thru 70's and we are losing stories all the time.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 10:21PM

I think we were in the legion just after it was turned over. We had to set up chairs and the tabels were stacked against the wall.

Johnny t
I have some from Putnam, another I would like to find would me the Mcglauhlen source.
I have sent a similar note to the library, but I think they have more that they have not uploaded.
I have at least 30 they they didn't have, and they had at least a dozen local ones that I have never seen before.
I really enjoy the ones he got his car or himself in.
I have one very early one from Swaztica studios, located in Big Bear, don't know if this is connected to the lodge or not.
The trees in the water helped make Big Bear because the grubs that were living in them fed the trout. There are stories of many very large trout caught back then. I have seen pictures of 30 pounders and heard of larger.
One winter when the lake was frozen they cut the trees at the water line. In the spring they floated them to shore and ran them thru a sawmill. There were a lot of trees left underwater untill the lake began to dry up in the 50's. They were cut when the lake ended about papoose bay to that hight.
I hope you can get some uploaded soon sound very interesting. The trees in the lake story is very interesting. B.G. Holmes wrote about them in a phamplet he produced, as well as other early stories.
I'll have to see if I have any Barry, dosent sound familiar
please get what you can on. There is so much out there and it should be available

Re: Big Bear History
bc, Sat Oct 13 2007, 10:43PM

Moose Drool wrote ...

(and in the summers also ran the Goldmine restaurant under Bill Strickland)


Bill Strickland did the electrical and some of the interior of my wee cabin. Seems like just a few years later that things started going down hill for him, and I was truly shocked when he died. IMHO, a real gentleman.

Re: Big Bear History
JohnnyT (K7JNT), Sat Oct 13 2007, 10:57PM

bills grandson wrote ...

One winter when the lake was frozen they cut the trees at the water line. In the spring they floated them to shore and ran them thru a sawmill. There were a lot of trees left underwater untill the lake began to dry up in the 50's. They were cut when the lake ended about papoose bay to that hight.
I hope you can get some uploaded soon sound very interesting.

I heard that those underwater stumps created boating hell for many years! I'll scan and upload some pics as soon as I can.


Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 13 2007, 11:12PM

They usualy marked them as they became a threat. Was sitting on the old dam one day as someone who got out of the boat and stood on the "water" that was still 20 feet deep there.
Best one I saw was most people don't know there is a road that lrads from lagonita point to Dana point in Fawnskin. When the lake was dropping I was walking out to the channel that was cut in the middle. The water was about 2 feet deep but I was standing in a hole about 3 feet deep. A boat came hauling by and happened to pick a spot that was about a foot deep. Really does funny things to a boat at 20 MPH. Kind of ruined their day. Had a hard time keeping a straight face as I walked past their boat as it drifted on to the East with no propeller.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Sun Oct 14 2007, 07:34AM

Highlander Restaurant:
Nedra?

Robin Hood Restaurant
Larry Juvenile?

Brownie Lane:
Musser
Byrds

Hall's Chicken:
I think that the chicken is in Mentone along with Spencer Real estates Paul Bunyan

Goldmine Restaurant:
Swimming in the summer

Reedy's market moved there were tabels in that building:
And pinball in the back


Slot machines:
I have heard stories from B. Shafer that they had buried slots out back of his house in a field on Greenway when he was a kid.

That old 1902 Map I posted show the old roads going across the lake.


Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Sun Oct 14 2007, 08:23AM

Sorry about Brownie. Off by a street

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Sun Oct 14 2007, 08:59AM

Remember them sand baging the dam in 69 and there was a house built on lakeview about 8' below lake level?
[Click Here]

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 14 2007, 11:55AM

Jeery B
where ya been?

yeah Nedra Sharkey. I knew there was an S somewhere, but everyone knew her by her first name.
mussers were one street up, bought the house that Carmen at the malt shop in town owned (what was her husbands name?, Russ?). Should be seeing Paul & Jeri very soon now that winter is coming on.
lots of birds (I think they fed them).
didn't know any byrd's, but name is familiar.
Birdsel's lived across the the street, was that who you meant?
Was there 2 Paul Bunyon's on the hill? I remember seeing him first at the real estate between The Union Station and Fuller's guest lodge, then again in Bear city. Seems I saw the one in Mentone at about the same time. Was there 3 or just one?
I know there were skinny dipping swimming parties at Goldmine when the bars closed.
Before the pool floated one Spring when they emptied it.
Same thing happened at Meadow park pool.
Luckily for them the earthquake happened shortly after and the Fed's gave them money to rebuild, which they didn't do. Filled it in, turned it into a weight room. Now they want the money to build another pool.

Ah Big Bear..... there are no secrets.
Did the whole story ever come out about the rubbish hauling business? or is that still a rumor?
Also how the city stole Broughton's buildings?
or decided it was O.K. to just cover up the leaking tanks in Front of McNeal's when they re did town.
Didn't remember the pinball, Hated that snooker table. Very nice old tabels 2 inch slate I think.
I wouldn't doubt there are still a bunch of slot machine's around. Some were supposedly dumped off Stillwell's and the Zebra room but when the lake was down they were either sunk in the mud or taken before I came along. If they were buried they were probably protected. Get a shovel, unless there is a house on them now.
I think I have a copy of that map somewhere, was it really big? I have a bunch will have to dig them out. Would be nice to have the proof that windy point is on the wrong side of the lake now.
Back that long ago they used to drive across "the narrows" which is what they called Stanfield cutoff. They had boards over the muddy spots. Not sure if the first car had been in the valley when that map was made. Will look it up.
They also sandbagged a few other times, a few years ago they had everything wide open and it was still going over the top. One of the postcards on the site I posted yesterday shows it sanbagged.
69 was great. I remember you could actualy watch the lake come up. Filled it from almost empty. One storm was great. 4 feet of snow then heavy warm rain. for several days.
Was that the year the meadow at the south end of pine Knot washed out? or was that later?
Was about the time of Tommie Tyndal's accident, and the time all the roofs collapsed if I remember right. Skating rink, Star market, and Cornet???

They also had a bunch of places near the sirport, including the airport that were under water.

Dennis







Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Mon Oct 15 2007, 06:49AM

I saw Jeri with her son John at Gary Doucette’s life celebration BBQ she is looking good. She would know about Paul Bunyon at Fullers, Porkey is still around also. Skinny-dipping for us was at the Moose in Sugarloaf in the wee hours. "Didn't remember the pinball, Hated that snooker table". I like playing pool there and the pinball where in the very back on the old wood floor the used to be the Meat storage. I remember braking a glass in the top of one of the machines and a George Kirbo was on my ass, he was the snooker arcade employee.

"The narrows" which is what they called Stanfield cutoff".

Damm that used to be fun before the widened it in the 70s you could hit that little bridge in the middle at speed and get a little airborne. Remember they hauled all the asphalt from Stanfield and dumped it on the corner then somebody wanted to do something with the property and they could not because of the asphalt in the dirt then it set there with piles on it for years then they clean and turned it in to a parking lot.

Ah Big Bear..... There are no secrets

"O.K. to just cover up the leaking tanks in Front of McNeal's when they re did town"

They went through a lot going down the blvd or what was left of them when they widened the Blvd. Beer Belly Paving hit one not to long ago. I think it was where Fultons auto and junk yard was and is now Stardollar coffee and Village Pizza The building Tom Boring built for Ralph that use to own Hannas Liquor next to Western Auto. They had to cleaned that one up. What about the Ice rink? A good one is the city dump truck took out one of the village signs in town a few years ago moving snow and they just spent 80k on a new one, and how about Allison and that land grab also. I remember watching the lake rise in 69 every wave would come up a little bit higher it seemed. Over in Fawnskin at Cluster Pines the crane boom was the only thing sticking out of the lake for years and the house on lakeview with the bottom floor under water, Now that was lake front cabin. Baldwin will be interesting if that ever comes up again.


Re: Big Bear History
Socalman, Mon Oct 15 2007, 08:53AM

I thought Tommie Tyndalls accident was a fe years earlier in the 60's. Yes the winter of 68-69 was great. I remember watching water skiers in Baldwin Lake in the spring of 69.

Re: Big Bear History
Lumber Jill, Mon Oct 15 2007, 11:12AM

we've kayaked Baldwin!

Re: Big Bear History
Moose Drool, Mon Oct 15 2007, 01:37PM

Jerry, your comments brought back some old memories: I knew Ralph very well -- he moved to Escondido after he sold his new building. I lost touch with him after I was sent to Greece.

... and the Borings. Hell, Tom had one heck of a personal labor force; all his kids, and the wife. I went to high school with two of the boys and their sister. Hard workers every one of them.


Re: Big Bear History
bearjibber [Banned], Mon Oct 15 2007, 01:37PM

I've driven on Baldwin haha.

Re: Big Bear History
Ernest T. Bass, Mon Oct 15 2007, 01:40PM

and sunk from what has been said.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Mon Oct 15 2007, 01:50PM

jerry b

Didn't know Jeri untill she worked at Alpo, don't know why not. "little red" hung around the Union station so I kind of knew him. Used to be able to buy underage beer at the beanery across the street. Little narrow place all bar and maybe 2 tabels in the back. Great chili. Better then Chili-zip (did you go to school with his daughter?)
didn't remember George working there. Always kick myself I didn't get to hear his dad "lonesome George" at the hotel, near bob's stable.
Did you ever try to play wirh regular pool ball's on the snooker tabel. They would just barely fit. No slop shots there. They also had a tabel with no holes at all, forget what that was.
My mom always called it the narrows, also called Godwin's corner, by the name of the people who built the house. Now that it is hardly a corner, people probably don't know where that is,
Used to drive from the moonridge Y to the twin bears at 5:00 P.M. and not see a car.
I think the bdget for Stanfield was the first job I remembered that was budgeted over 1 million dollars, and that floored me.
Yeah I think they stole that property on the corner from Harold Grahm, as well as a bunch more to "protect" the Eagels.
The city stole a lot of property, and ruined a lot of good people's names over the years. Havent paid attentionm to them recently, last thing I followed was when the checkerbloom back fired on them. Lots of crooked , know-all flatllander's with big idea's passed through there.
Still waiting for a serious snowstorm to see how they handle the new town they built.
Where do they put the snow now?
There was a gas station above Hanna's (where the lumber yard was) probably one across the street too.
Come to think about it I don't remember them pulling tanks at Richfield,Chevron or several other places. A lot are now city propery.
I think the Allison deal was all part of the Broughton and rubbish hauling era.
Good thing they paid the extra millions to underground all the utilities from town to Stater's.
Oh wait they didn't do that either, now if they want to they will have to repair and pull all new wire. They had the wire to the bussiness's
Then there was the money they spent trying to steal the water company, then had to change all the plumbing. Now I hear they want to "give" it back.
Socalman
I think you are right about tyndal's accident. Much of the 60's were a blur to me. I remember the night it was pouring rain and I was working at Hall's when I heard the news
I remember getting stuck riding in Balwin lake when it was dry Still enjoy seeing where people slow down when it is dry and dusty (for 6 inches).
Once you break the "ice" it is very thin mud from there to the center of the earth.
There are dozens of spots on the hill that have quicksan when there is a little water, and I have been stuck in most of them.
Closest I ever came to kyaking, was runnin a duck boat on the lake.
How many people remember opening day od duck season in the old days? I think everyone found out just before daylight every year.
Dennis








Re: Big Bear History
bearjibber [Banned], Mon Oct 15 2007, 04:22PM

bkap wrote ...

and sunk from what has been said.


Hey, I did get out, so I went across the whole thing, so there.

Re: Big Bear History
Socalman, Mon Oct 15 2007, 08:35PM

socalman wrote ...

I thought Tommie Tyndalls accident was a fe years earlier in the 60's. Yes the winter of 68-69 was great. I remember watching water skiers in Baldwin Lake in the spring of 69.


I checked it out and it was 1964 when Tommy died. I remember it was a really ugly day. Went skiing at Summit and it was raining! My mom picked me up and about the time we got back to our place it turned to snow.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Mon Oct 15 2007, 10:49PM

i just uploaded a ton of B& W postcards. Should be of good quality except for the last few. If you have some that are not there of the valley please scan at good resolution and post.
I will do linen postcards and then regular at a later time.
these are all pre 1950
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Mon Oct 15 2007, 10:53PM

sorry forgot to ad the link
Dennis
[Click Here]

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Mon Oct 15 2007, 11:09PM

Imight have screwed it up somehow so if it dosent load check it later.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Lumber Jill, Tue Oct 16 2007, 09:10AM

I deleted those BG...let me know if you need help uploading them.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Tue Oct 16 2007, 07:03PM

got abouth half of them loaded bact to try and finish up.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Wed Oct 17 2007, 09:03PM

this didn't work the first time will try again. This is taken from B.G. Holmes book. He was probably the first historian in Big Bear and wrote first person
I'll also send a picture that may not work. If anyone can fix it please do. It might work if you download it then enlarge it It may be the oldest picture taken in the valley.
Dennis



Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Wed Oct 17 2007, 09:08PM

here is the pic



Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Wed Oct 17 2007, 09:35PM

STUMPS

I am trying to post a photo? JPEG

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Wed Oct 17 2007, 09:37PM

Second Times a Charm?


Looks not to be the case

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Wed Oct 17 2007, 10:35PM

Jerry
I think it is papoose bay, but I have seen one similar down behind the post office. I'll try to send one in a larger format to your email in a few
Have you checked out the postcards?
just added a few more and some great family pictures
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:47AM

Ok it third and last time for this photo. I have a photo taken down by the dam. Must be a file problem

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 09:19AM

Photograph of snow-covered rocky area near Big Bear Lake, California, ca.1930. A large section of forest has been cleared in the foreground, with only stumps indicating where trees were. In the background, a rocky ridge runs across the image and is covered with snow and tall pine trees





Re: Big Bear History
SrRaceFan, Thu Oct 18 2007, 09:23AM

Okay, Jerry, it's there now! Do you know when the picture was taken? I mean, are we talking recent or long ago...

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 18 2007, 12:18PM

Great picture Jerry
hope you have some information on it.
The pictures of the lake empty around 1900 show there are still tall stumps in the area, so I would think this is just after that. There appears to be a waterline low on the rocks. Do you have any that show the dirt dam the built so they could start the dam???
I have never seen any of it. I couldn't find it with my fish locator. I would think it is near papoose bay and would not have had to been very large to block the river bed in that area for the brief time it would have been needed.
Got to thinking about the oldest picture thing. There are dozen's available of the dam construction but few that show the valley proper at that time.
I hope it didn't take as long to load as it did to send and came thru O.K.
If you have a good scan of this one as well as a caption would you send it to me.

I had said something about cars in the valley in regards to your map. John Fisher wrote that he brought the first one in during 1909 came up from Lucerne over what is now the back grade.
Not sure if one hadn't come in over the Van Dusen road to Holcomb then into the valley at an earlier date.
Fisher was big on self promotion.
I'll post part of a letter he wrote to Bill when they and several others owned Pine Knot lodge and my grandfather had mentioned he might sell his shares to Gud Knight. It is very funny
Dennis




Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 04:54PM

This would be a hard place to water ski



Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 04:58PM

Big Bear Dam



Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 18 2007, 05:35PM

great pictures Jerry Is that a guy fishing in the top one?
or a bigfoot?
do you have any of the Quarry or bellows lodge?
Wish they would have had stairs there we went down there
When I was a kid I always imagined my grabdfather coming acrosss the dam riding in a wagon train. as one of the discoverers of the valley
kind of dumb, there wasent a road there for a long time
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 06:01PM


Old Miners Week (Big Bear Lake), 16 August 1951. Shirley Page; Tony Webster -- 14 years; Frank Ave (CQ); Ruth Baker.
Caption slip reads: "Photographer: Richardson. Reporter: Swaim. Assignment: Old Miners' Week. Big Bear Lake. K14 & K18: Shirley Page rubbing 'guaranteed hair grower' into fuzzless face of hopeful Tony Webster, 14, who wants to grow beard in time for Big Bear Old Miners' Week celebration opening Sept. 3. K13: Shirley Page applying 'Guaranteed hair grower' to already well started beard of Frank Ave (cq), president of Old Miners' Association. Perhaps can be used with caption only? Story material to be forthcoming by mail from Ruth Baker, Big Bear Chamber of Commerce, shortly"




Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 18 2007, 07:38PM

I have no idea where your coming up with this stuff.
Except for the cowboy boots, I had this excact fantasy when I was that age.
Sure was'nt Barney's where I got my haircut at that age.
All he had was stag, and argosy in the pile of magazines, and a really great calandar on the wall.
Actualy could it have had something to do with the navajo, or maybe the pine cone?
I would bet the wall was painted by Shirley Sprague.
She did paintings like that with the girls sitting on the fence
like that and all they wore were chaps, viewed from the back.
I have a print of her's somewhere.
Is that you in the picture? do you know what year it was?
the think in the lower left corner looks take it may be a footrail like the used to have in bars.
cool photo. If it isn't you is there a name Leonard written somewhere on it?
looks like someone I once knew

Re: Big Bear History
Around The Lake, Thu Oct 18 2007, 07:52PM

What teen boy dose not dream of that?

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:02PM

I was never in the hotel so it could be there. By the title and the badge on the girl I would assume it was during old miners days. looks like someone has painted hair on the kids head. Maybe a before and after type thing.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:13PM

Old Miners Week (Big Bear Lake), 16 August 1951. Shirley Page; Tony Webster -- 14 years; Frank Ave (CQ); Ruth Baker.
Caption slip reads: "Photographer: Richardson. Reporter: Swaim. Assignment: Old Miners' Week. Big Bear Lake. K14 & K18: Shirley Page rubbing 'guaranteed hair grower' into fuzzless face of hopeful Tony Webster, 14, who wants to grow beard in time for Big Bear Old Miners' Week celebration opening Sept. 3. K13: Shirley Page applying 'Guaranteed hair grower' to already well started beard of Frank Ave (cq), president of Old Miners' Association. Perhaps can be used with caption only? Story material to be forthcoming by mail from Ruth Baker, Big Bear Chamber of Commerce, shortly".

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:16PM

old bikers day photo 1951

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:17PM

I think tommy webster may still be up there. Eddie would know I'll send it to him.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:40PM

Tommy the building Insp.

Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:47PM

1951 old miners



Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:48PM

could very well be could be you have some blackmail material


Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Thu Oct 18 2007, 08:55PM

Blackmail, If it was me I would of had posters made. Doing the math the boy in the photo would be around 70 now

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 18 2007, 09:13PM

I sent Eddie the info will probably find out later, could be his dad?
you mean I was right? it was a before and after. That seldom happens
That was way before the biker's ruined old miners.
the local's were doing it by themselves.
Now I have to dig up the few I have.
It was not much later when a couple of the local ski instructers nailed rollar skate on the bottom of their skies and got drug behind a car. It was a segment on you asked for it.
somebody should dig that video up.
now I'm confused, was this the kids dream? or is she a 7th grade school teacher and it is her dream????



Re: Big Bear History
Hooky Bobber, Sat Oct 20 2007, 10:27AM

I found some AAA maps







Re: Big Bear History
Lumber Jill, Sat Oct 20 2007, 11:12AM

any idea on when those were published?

Re: Big Bear History
Denver, Thu Oct 25 2007, 01:26AM

Anyone know of an abandonded town back behind holcomb that still has ruins? I know there was a town there, but I did not think there was anythig left.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 25 2007, 07:58AM

depends what you call "ruins". There are foundations and even several cabins that are in various conditions. Most of these cabins are deppresion era. As far as ghost town type places no. Hitchcock ranch is about all that is left of older buildings and it is private property. I spent a lot of time in Holcomb and have beed absolutly everywhere especially in upper Holcomb but will still find something I had never noticed. best advice is to read what you can and go out and poke around. Find several different people who know the area and go out with them. There is a lot to see
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Denver, Thu Oct 25 2007, 11:15AM

Thanks.

Re: Big Bear History
, Thu Oct 25 2007, 11:35AM

Denver wrote ...

Anyone know of an abandonded town back behind holcomb that still has ruins? I know there was a town there, but I did not think there was anythig left.



Belleville?

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Oct 25 2007, 05:30PM

Denver here is a map that shows many of the areas. To really see anything left, you should go into the hills and valleys, there is not really anything "real" in these site's. most things you see were not really where the signs are



Re: Big Bear History
, Thu Oct 25 2007, 05:49PM

Bellville once (in 1850's) had over 2,000 people and barely missed being the county's seat.

Re: Big Bear History
Denver, Fri Oct 26 2007, 12:36PM

I guess my plans are on hold since they closed all the forest roads

Re: Big Bear History
©ammy, Fri Oct 26 2007, 09:42PM

BBB wrote ...

Bellville once (in 1850's) had over 2,000 people and barely missed being the county's seat.

It missed by one vote, If I remember correctly.
Sounds similar to the turkey almost becoming the national bird...

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Fri Oct 26 2007, 09:56PM

there are a lot of stories that sound like ones from other area's The tree of the living cross, and the 4th of July bear and bull fight's are among them. There is a bit of truth in them all So it is hard to discount them. But it does make you wonder. There are a lot of stories that do sound plausable. There is probably a record somewhere in county records that will confirm or deny that particular one. There was also some Holcomb valley ballot boxes that were supposedly kicked in the fire that day. In the end it dosen't really make a difference. And they are good stories.
Dennis


Re: Big Bear History
cricket, Fri Oct 26 2007, 10:35PM

Does anyone know if Big Bear Valley EVER was overtaken by fire? And I mean like what GV, RS and Arrowhead have experienced?

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Fri Oct 26 2007, 10:54PM

As far as I know there never was. In the 40's Skyline drive burned across the whole backside, Beyond Erwin Lake in the 60's. A lot of Sugarloaf burnt in the 50's And those are the worst I know of. In the old days there would be a lightninig strike and a couple of guys would grab tools ride horses in and put it out.
Back then there were several things that helped. Good snow fall to keep trees happy pleanty of deer to keep the brush down. Another thing that I would like to see them bring back are sheep. I understand that they will eat buckthorn and almost everything else. They would have to keep moving them to stop overgrazing and the lions would love them.
The most important think that is different from today is even the Sierra club realized a forest was to be managed not locked up. We always had logging untill the 70's. And you can't tell where they were. But you can easily spot where all the serious fires were.
Dennis


Re: Big Bear History
cricket, Sat Oct 27 2007, 09:57AM

well, that helps to bolster my theory. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Re: Big Bear History
, Sat Oct 27 2007, 10:08AM

I agree wsith Dennis' assessment.

Re: Big Bear History
cricket, Sat Oct 27 2007, 11:35AM

so that just solidifies my theory just that much more.....

Re: Big Bear History
Luna, Sat Oct 27 2007, 03:39PM

cricket wrote ...

well, that helps to bolster my theory. Anyone else have an opinion on this?


What is your theory and how does Dennis' comments solidify said theory?


.

Re: Big Bear History
JohnnyT (K7JNT), Sat Oct 27 2007, 04:33PM

Dr. William Bonnicksen, an expert in forestry and wildfires has been trying for the past 15 years to sound the alarm that these recent megafires are of our own doing and are preventable. He advocates "Restoration forestry" which include a variety of approaches, but in general, he says, "reduce the fuel and you reduce the problem". Even now, environmentalists criticize him as a spokesperson for the timber industry (which is simply not true, his funding comes from a non-profit foundation).

He was recently asked where the next major fires in California will be. What he said sent a chill up my spine. He said, "that's easy, just look at a map where dense fuels have built up over the last few decades with no burn-off. One area is the Laguna Hills where dense chaparral has built up unchecked since the disastrous Laguna fire in the 1970's. The second place is the south side of Big Bear."

His book, "Solving the Wildfire Crisis Through Restoration Forestry", is a must read for anyone living in the SB Mountains. It's available as a free PDF here...

[Click Here]

Then we need put significant pressure on our elected officials to reintroduce selective commercial logging (so it thins out our forest and costs us little).

BTW, back in the 80's and 90's, I was an active environmentalist, attending all sorts of protests, mostly up north in the Headwaters. I still agree with the ends and intentions the environmental community is trying to achieve, but I now realize the means are horribly (and tragically) misguided. Intelligent conservation methods is the key.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 27 2007, 04:36PM

got this from jeeryb the other day. Those interested in BB history should try and catch, and tape one of these showings We had mentioned it earlier. One of the best to show locations around town. Filmed in 1956, shows great views of Chad's, the alley next to Navajo ballroom as well as theater in the background, up pine knot from near north end. the old firestation/police station, when the police station was there. No FMB across the street as well as houses on pine Knot above town, on Wren, Forestry lease's NE of the dam and great shots of the old dam and a very low lake.
Kind of a cheesy movie with standard plot but real good scenery.
Dennis

Dish TCM 132Wed, Oct 31, 10:30 AM PT The Werewolf
Direct TCM 256Wed, Oct 31, 10:30 AM The Werewolf
Cable TCM 82Wed, Oct 31, 10:30 AM The Werewolf

Re: Big Bear History
JohnnyT (K7JNT), Sat Oct 27 2007, 04:42PM

Sorry to get off-topic with my last post. I'll start a new thread for this in the General forum section. Let's keep this thread for BB history?

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 27 2007, 04:49PM

logging brings in money, rather then paying to have them take thm out as they have done the last few years. Also woodcutting by citizens, make them take a class if you want but they get a lot of the trash out of the way. It is crazy to let this happen when money could be brought in and resources used instead of wasted. would make more sense to hire people to rake the pine needles away from the trees and then burn in the winter. I wont go into locations but there are many places a fire could be easily started they would have more trouble putting out then the slide has been.
This is not a bad place to post about fires but put it on my how to reforest or start another, would not hurt.
ideas need to be shared for reasonable solutions in "or" valley then are being done.
One think if I owned up there now would be to look at slate roof's sprinklers on the roof and under eves. Most houses catch from the roof, under the eves, wood stacked next to the house and drapes and furniture near windows
Dennis


Re: Big Bear History
Ridelikethewind, Sat Oct 27 2007, 05:05PM

A healthy forest does help to negate the chance of fire. But we have to consider all the facets of what healthy means.

Smog has been damaging our pine trees for years. Smog weakens the trees and the beetles move in. Even before the drought this was happening. Smog is a bigger issue than anyone in So Cal can solve.

Then there's the fact that we, humans, continue to move into areas where we shouldn't be. Someone mentioned chaparral. Do you know that chaparral plants have developed means of surviving fires and that some even require fire to germinate and grow? Meaning chaparral has been burning regularly for a long long time. Hmmmm...anyone want to build in chaparral covered hills?

And sorry Dennis- but those logging roads from the 70s are still very much visible to those of us who get into the mountains. I see them all the time. Easy to tell which ones are logging roads- still old slash about. Not that logging is always bad but there are too few controls on how logging is done. The forest usually suffers the brunt of it while we pat ourselves on the back saying what a good job we've done to reduce fuels.

Managing our forests is a high priority. Sadly we tend to swing from extreme to extreme. Clear level heads are required to take a good look at what really works without pressure from recent events. Unfortunately I don't think that dense human habitation is compatible with a healthy forest- one of the two will lose something valuable.

So where does that leave us? In a precarious position- just like our forests.



Re: Big Bear History
, Sat Oct 27 2007, 05:17PM

I would like the forests up here to go back to pre-1900's look. In other words, I want to see the forest floor from up above.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 27 2007, 07:06PM

That P.O.’s me had this all done then lost it while trying to send it and now have to start over. I am sure there are a few who have been holding their breath for my answer

Anyway ridelikethewind ( how apprapo)

I agree with you that we should remove all the logging roads.
We should start with 330 from the bottom of the hill to Running Springs. Then 18 from there to Snow Valley, and the green valley road.
Waterman canyon to Lake Arrowhead would also have to go.
About the only road that I can think of that was not either a logging, or mining road is a lot of the “old” rim of the world highway from Mentone to Clark’s ranch then up Clark’s grade into the valley. Part of which was a logging road.
Once in the valley you could follow the highway to Fawnskin. The snowslide road from there to Green valley is kind of iffy.
You could always come up from Lucerne Valley up Johnson grade and the snubbin post road to Doble. Oh wait that was mostly a logging road.
Smog is a definite problem but is not caused by logging. Matter of fact it has gotten worse since the logging stopped. A definite research paper if I ever heard one.
Drought is by far the more serious problem then smog. A healthy pine tree withy plenty of water to produce sap can drown a pine Beetle before he can cause damage.
The pine beetle has been a problem since before man, smog, the Forest Service , and the “environmentalist” have been around.
It came to the Governments attention as far as I can tell in 1909. In 1939 there was an attack that almost destroyed the forests. That was pretty much before smog.
The Forest Service has done little more then do studies and experiment in that time.
They did come up with a smog tolerant tree and planted a bunch. I think they were all taken out by fire.
Sounds like you agree with Barbra Feinstien when the other day she said people more or less get what they deserve by moving into fire prone area’s. ( I hope California remembers that next time she come up for re-election)
I think Al Gore, her and you should get together and draw a map of what areas in California are not prone to fire.
If you live in the mountains I suppose you are ready to tear down your house and return it to it’s natural state. More then likely you live in Orange county or up in the bay area. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I think they have had trouble with fire a few times. 3 times I think for San Francisco. But in truth one of those was caused by an earthquake. Served them right for building in an earthquake prone area.
If the forest were thinned by responsible logging it would provide more water for the remaining trees to get through this current drought Cycle.
They also should do something to fight the pine beetle. One suggesting I like is to introduce are pheromones to attract the beetle to traps when they swarm.
Re introduce grazing of cattle and sheep to thin brush. Logging. Logging was always done in our area by rangers picking tree that were ready to be cut. Take a few leave a few. Part of the contract should include a bond that would be returned when any repairs stated would be completed. As much as I hate to say it I would like to have a moratorim on deer hunting with a definite sunset clause. And to re introduce a bounty on mountain lions.
Untill the 60's when they introduced doe tags we had an abundance of deer who helped keep brush down and also fed people, and mountain lions.
I also would not reject out of hand bringing back Grizzly bears. They love to eat tree huggers.
You will have to describe to me where logging slash from the 70's is. I don’t recall seeing it. I do know where piles of brush cut to be burned in the winter as the used to do was never burned and is now overgrown again.
I have heard no one suggest clear cutting but it makes more sense to cut and use the wood and make a profit to help manage the forest then to tie the Forest Service’s hands and ending up paying to remove three times as many tree’s and burning them and having forest fires to burn some more. All of which brings us back to smog.
The chaparral area’s you mention were mostly covered with trees before they burnt.
The San Bernardino’s have only swung one direction and it is time for us to swing back.
By the way I sign my postings and ten minutes on this thread will tell you all about me.
And that I have been in the forest a time or two. I would bet that I am twice the environminilist as you and more then that a thinking environmintilist.
I would hope that you would come up with suggestions to help in our discussion of what we can do to help us decide what we can do to help.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Ridelikethewind, Sat Oct 27 2007, 07:13PM

You know, i thought you wanted a serious discussion of forestry practice. I didn't realize you wanted to be facetious. Sorry, my mistake. I thought you said that the logging roads had disappeared. I was responding to that.

AND healthy trees, uncompromised by smog, can withstand a drought much longer than sick ones. So who's right? Six of one, half dozen of another.

I thought we could find common ground but instead I find you would rather fight. As to deciding who is more of an environmentalist- is that what you do when someone has a differing opinion? get into a p!$$ing match? I don't have to justify my opinions to you. I won't play that game with you. You can have this thread- anytime you actually want to discuss instead of pontificate let me know.

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sat Oct 27 2007, 07:48PM

don't know what you mean I am ready to remove all the logging roads. Agreed smog was bad. agreed pine beetles are bad. want to hear some construtive ideas. I lived in Big Bear since birth and have seen it when it was well managed and the way it is now. No PHD but a lifetime of expierence. I am open to constructive ideas and thought I came a long way suggestion restrictions on the mess they do leave, and many of the roads should be restored. Not like the Forest Service is being pushed to do now. The Government owns more then 60% of the land west of The rockies and the citizen's taxes have to support that. The conservency types want more turned into widerness removing people's property from tax rolls. There are many who would like to see no people on the planet. I personaly don't disagree with that but I think if God or mother nature decides that it is their bussiness.
My point was that almost every road we travel started out as a game trail, then an indian trade route then mining or lumber road which are what built California. and are now highways.
I am appaled thatt 150 years ago there were only a handful of people in California and I know it can't increase that much for another 150.
The reason this thread was started was to promote the history of the valley and mining, lumbering, and cattle were a big part of it's past and should be a part of it's future.
It is a very small part of the worlds problems but one that I feel strongly about. If I hurt your feelings I'm sorry but you tripped several triggers at once. I would like to hear your idea's and background. Perhaps this should be taken to another thread either start one or choose one that is already started. I have one on re foresting that has slowed down and fits this topic better
as far as a pissing contest I accept the fact that you would win I'm 60 years old and have given up on those glory days years ago.
I was only answering questions and then defending my point from attack. I will agree to a banning of political talk on this thread and only talking about history.

Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
Lumber Jill, Sat Oct 27 2007, 09:16PM

keep the discussion civil. state your opinion and keep your judgments about other to yourself.

Re: Big Bear History
cricket, Sat Oct 27 2007, 10:24PM

kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya.......

Re: Big Bear History
Lumber Jill, Sun Oct 28 2007, 11:53AM

i think it's time to take this conversation back to the history of Big Bear. Feel free to start a thread elsewhere discussing the proper care of forest, or the politics of forest care

Re: Big Bear History
IS RanchRoad, Sun Oct 28 2007, 01:40PM

Ten or fifteen years ago there were cattle around Deep Creek --- is anyone still running livestock in the SB Forest?

Properly managed, the use of grazing animals [sheep/goats/cattle] can do a lot to reduce scrub and related fire danger. Let's see if I can add a link:
[Click Here]




Re: Big Bear History
dd, Sun Oct 28 2007, 02:31PM

I remember the cattle. They aren't still there?

Re: Big Bear History
bc, Sun Oct 28 2007, 02:42PM

IS RanchRoad wrote ...
Properly managed, the use of grazing animals [sheep/goats/cattle] can do a lot to reduce scrub and related fire danger. Let's see if I can add a link:
[Click Here]



Far be it from me to say, "I told you so." ... nah ....

I TOLD YOU SO!!!

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Sun Oct 28 2007, 02:52PM

Sorry about my little rant last night guys, really should keep thread on history.
There used to be cattle in Holcomb when I was young, still may have some near Clark's ranch. In places you can still find evidence where there were fences and cattle guards around. In case any don't know cattle guards were in the roads and a series of heavy bars with about a two inch open space between them. about three feet wide. Cars can cross but I gues cows don't. there are still cattle out in the desert East of the slash X. one bit of warning, if one is standing in the road, just shut down and have a soda, don't honk your horn, especialy if you are in a red VW. Oh another hint. Those little calves won't fit in a VW.
Dennis

Re: Big Bear History
GrandPappy, Thu Dec 13 2007, 07:28PM

While searching on Google for Putnam & Valentine I got a hit that was a posting by Johnny T. I'm new to this forum thing so if I don't follow the established norms please be a bit forgiving. Putnam & Valentine was a partnership of John R. Putnam, Arion Putnam, and Carlton O. Valentine ca. 1901 to ca. 1920. John was born in New York 1836 and died at Eagle Rock, California 1913. Arion was born 1870 in New York City and died at Eagle Rock/Los Angeles 1949. Carlton was born at Coloma, California 1871 died at Costa Mesa, California 1970. I have not been able to find anything linking John to photography until he shows up listed as a photographer in the 1891 Los Angeles City Directory. The only occupation I've found for him before he shows up in Los Angeles is in the 1880 census where he is listed as a fancy goods agent. Unfortunately the 1890 census records were destroyed by fire. Arion was in Southern California in 1888 so it is likely that the rest of the family was there also. According to his obituary Arion was photographing in California 1891. Carlton, between 1891 and 1901, according to the Los Angeles City Directory was a law clerk, book keeper, and comptroler for the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce before partnering with John and Arion. He was known to be an amateur photographer, and founding member of the Los Angeles Camera Club.
Of the photographs of the Bear Valley and Little Bear Lake areas made by Putnam & Valentine that I have seen; the earliest date I can establish is 1915 – possibly late 1914. So, it's unlikely that John took any photographs in the area: Remember he died in 1913. So that leaves either Arion, Carlton or one the studio's staff photographers (yep they had those.) As Carlton spent a lot of his summer time at Lake Tahoe, I favor either Arion or one of the staff. Putnam & Valentine owned the Pine Knot studio. I've never found anything that I could consider a reliable reason for the break up of the partnership. I have found a 1920 connection of Carlton with his farther-in-law. This might indicate he left the Putnam & Valentine partnership to help in his father-in law's business. I lose track of Carlton between 1920 and 1928 when he turns up at Lake Tahoe as a merchant. (of what is never given) In 1934 he became the operator of a summer resort. He is in the Lake Tahoe are until he and his wife retire to Costa Mesa in 1948.
After the partnership break up Arion continued to operate as Putnam Studios. There were branch studios, shops (you pick) at Pine Knot, Fawn Skin, and Lake Arrowhead. These continued to operate into the thirties maybe the forties. I have found Putnam Studio postcards postmarked in the late forties. Arion's son Ralph joined the firm in 1929. He managed to keep the studio going until he died in 1955.
As far as I know Al Green a Los Angeles commercial photographer bought most of the older negatives and prints. These eventually found their way to the Los Angeles County Museum. If any body knows what happened to the rest of the negative/print files they don't seem to be talking

Re: Big Bear History
bills grandson, Thu Dec 13 2007, 08:07PM

GrandPappy

Really enjoyed your post. Hope you checked out the old photos section. I posted a bunch of the black & white post cards. Mostly Frasher's.
His negatives are at the Pomona library (I believe).
there is a link on a previous post by me. They are not good quality, but very interesting. Learned a lot about him just by looking at the pictures. but there is a bio also.
I hope if you have any postcards you would like to share you would scan with a decent resolution and add to "our" historic photo's. or limks to sites that may have them.
Almost all of Big Bears history is held in the pictures taken, and post cards are a great source. A lot of the written history has been corrupted and so it is hard to tell what is true. I have some oral history that has been told to me that I try to write as it was told to me. There are few sources that were written first person. I will add linen and later color postcards when I get them ready to post. If you are interested in another area I may have some I would be happy to send.
I have only one from a Swaztika studio that was located in Pine Knot, probably at Swaztika lodge. I have found nothing on this.
Dennis


Re: Big Bear History
Around The Lake, Thu Dec 13 2007, 08:14PM

Grandpappy some of the negs are still up here and owned by Millener Productions on Pine Knot Dr.
I love the old prints he gave us to remember "the way it was" in our Valley.
Other prints are owned by Big Bear Valley historical society.

Re: Big Bear History
JohnnyT (K7JNT), Thu Dec 13 2007, 11:08PM

GrandPappy, thanks very much for all of this info on Putnam & Valentine! It really filled in a lot of the gaps in what little information I could find about them. My earliest P&V postcards are postmarked 1917, which places them at or just after John's passing. Like you mentioned, it was probably his son Arion or another staff member who took most of the photos here in the Big Bear Valley.

I once saw an early magazine advertisement for P&V Studios where they were advertising 8x10 prints from their "extensive" catalog of photos. If I remember correctly, it cost just a dollar to get their catalog. Over the years, I've collected about 7 of these 8x10 prints, mostly of Zion and the Grand Canyon. I don't know if it was due to mass production on cheaper paper, or simply due to age, but all of these photos are heavily faded with a wonderful sepia glow. From my experience, their work seems scarce and almost never show up for sale, but P&V has turned out to be among my favorite because of their eye for composition.

I did promise to scan and post some of my early postcards, including some P&V. Sorry I haven't yet done that. I'm buried with work (it's my busy season), but I'll do that as soon as I can.

Re: Big Bear History
GrandPappy, Fri Dec 14 2007, 02:30PM

I'm not sure how to respond to the request to post photographs to the web. 1.) Almost all the photographs I had have been donated to the Seaver Center for Western History Research, Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History. 2.) Without taking inventory, I have no idea how many there are – in the collection that got me started researching the Putnams and Carlton O. Valentine there are 34 prints mostly 8X10's. Plus there is the stuff I've picked up after I started researching. The latter is mostly small stuff – postcards, souvenir booklets, etc. 3.) I don't know the extent of your groups interest in the area. There are photographs of Arrowhead Hot Springs Hotel on the west end to Lake Baldwin on the east. Clark Grade, Mill Creek Canyon, Seven Oaks, Camp Radford, Camp Seeley, about the only areas not in the pile is the area between Big Bear Lake and Little Bear. And there are no photographs of the North side. I wouldn't know where to start. I did digitize the pile before sending it off to the Seaver Center. If you guys want to get together and elect ONE trusted individual to take a hike off towards Holcomb Valley; Send me his name and mailing address, I'll transfer what I have to a cd(s) for him to find by the side of the road as he wanders along. My e-mail address is irvink©softcom.net

Re: Big Bear History
Around The Lake, Fri Dec 14 2007, 06:37PM

Grandpappy I will do it for you if you like.

Re: Big Bear History
Radha, Sun Feb 03 2008, 09:59AM

Cat wrote ...

DARN IT I remember the Highlander. Fancy folks went in there.


Here's a photo of the Highlander.