Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Brother, Fri Sep 25 2020, 02:26PM

Hi, My first post!
I'm going to put washer/dryer combo in a Sugarloaf rental. Is it better to run an electric dryer or gas? I know gas prices from Southwest are high. Does someone out there know the cost differences? Thanks Ken

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Airport Razz, Fri Sep 25 2020, 04:41PM

Still by far cheaper than the bloodsuckers at BVES. Units are cheaper and easier to repair also. In 30+ years I have converted many to gas. ZERO to electric. Don't go cheap as the cheap ones cost as much yo fix as the pricey ones. And if doing a vacation rental get the largest capacity you can fit into the closet. Your cleaning staff will appreciate it and no offsite laundry

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
NShore.Allen, Fri Sep 25 2020, 05:05PM

Welcome aboard! I hope this answers your question

While Southwest gas is expensive, so is BVES electricity. There is a simple calculation to show that gas dryers are cheaper to operate.

The comparison uses my gas and electricity bills, I don't use much so the numbers may be off a bit but you can correct the numbers.

I pay, on average $1.49 per therm for gas ($53.64/36 therms.. I also pay, on average $0.36 per KWhr from BVES ($30.05 / 84 KWhr). Both rates include the taxes and surcharges

A gas GE dryer ($629 at Home Depot) uses 22,000 BTU per hr. There are 100,000 BTU per Therm so the dryer uses 0.22 Terms per hr. To use the gas dryer for 1 hr costs $0.33 (0.22 * $1.49)

The same GE dryer in electric ($539 at Home Depot) uses 5600 watts per hour or 5.6 KWhr per hr or use. To use the electric dryer for 1hr costs $2.02 (5.6 * $0.36)

Gas $0.33 per hr
Electric $2.02 per hr

The electric dryer is $90 less but you would eat the savings after 53 hrs of operation


gas_vs_electric_dryer_cost.pdf

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Squatch, Fri Sep 25 2020, 07:03PM

Something that hasn`t been mentioned and makes a big difference!

There are two different rates for local/resident and part time/non-resident for propane (were county) and I believe electric as well!

I`m guessing if you use a local mailing address for your bills you can get the local rates, which are quite a bit less!

I just wish someone had told us when we moved up here full time several years ago, we paid HUGE bills on both for about a year and a half before we found out about this

Not even sure if that`s legal but ! that`s the way it is....

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Airport Razz, Fri Sep 25 2020, 08:40PM

Squatch, I pick up mail for a number of my DTH owners just for that reason 馃槈

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Brother, Sat Sep 26 2020, 10:11AM

I wasn't sure about the cost difference a full time tenant pays the bill I just want the most affordable solution. I know his winter heat bill goes crazy if they don't burn some wood. Great info Thanks

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
mountainart, Sat Sep 26 2020, 10:39AM

We are getting an industrial/hotel service dryer for our house we are building. The motor is 220v, but the heat is gas. we have to change out the jets to smaller size for propane and high altitude. The bigger the dryer you are able to get the better. It is related to air movement and drum size, where if you throw a full set of sheets and towels in, they dry out in literally 5 minutes. this makes the actual time gas is burning super efficient. A typical home style gas dryer takes well over half an hour or lots longer to completely dry a full laundry load, whereas a large drum industrial dryer, like a 55 gal size or bigger, gets the job done in a few minutes. The electrical motors for both will use about the same amount of electricity, and the large dryer gas therms, although more per minute, ends up being less overall as you are only drying in 20 percent time.

Lots of refurbished industrial outlets in and around the appliance district in LA, just above the 10 fwy, between maple and santa fe streets. Easy to score a unit for less than a grand that will last 20 years of a couple loads a week. Far better deal than the new home style bells and whistles 2 grand units that routinely die after several years as all those fragile plastic parts, and eventually useless computer controlled sensors and "connected/smart" features which are the main fail points (ask any appliance rehab folk).

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
doo路hick路ey, Sat Sep 26 2020, 02:35PM

Years ago at the rental, I swapped out the elec water heater & dryer to natural gas. At the home we have LPropane, I know LP is more expensive than natural gas, but still cheaper than BVES, correct?
We 'try' to run heavy appliances during our solar panel peak times. That's why I haven't given it much thought to covert over to LP... Prolly should do some math.

It's a myth that 240v is more efficient than 120v. It really just has less draw at startup as much easier on motors/components, etc. and shorter wire lengths inside for each run.
So longer life!

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
AB BikeHikeRun, Mon Sep 28 2020, 06:32AM

If you have solar, you can obviously offset the usage of an electric dryer. Not having to install gas lines is also nice.

We ended up replacing a gas dryer with an electric one because we were having venting issues, as the vent run was long and windy out of the below-grade location where we have the washer/dryer. The electric dryer can be vented straight into our house, through an extra filter system called Better Vent. For the majority of the year up here, having some extra heat and humidity inside the house is not a bad thing. The rest of the year, we can open a few windows.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
doo路hick路ey, Mon Sep 28 2020, 01:04PM

I wanted to add, great info on local residence billing, mountainart.

We have our dryer vent, vented to crawlspace under house. Yeah checked yearly or when I think about it.

The 1st & 2nd tier therms calculations after solar linear calculations has me mind-boggled.

I can tap in to gas line runs, no prob.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Socalman, Tue Sep 29 2020, 08:13AM

Another small advantage to the gas dryer over the electric is reliability. The difference may be small but could be significant in some cases. When was the last time the gas service went out? How many times has BVES lost power to your place this year?

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Airport Razz, Tue Sep 29 2020, 08:38AM

The biggest reason I still have gravity furnances in the place.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
mountainart, Tue Sep 29 2020, 10:13AM

We are making the main heat source for our house from wood stoves with peltier arrays around the hot boxes to generate electricity, precisely because of electricity down issues here every winter. I see new homes being made here with zero accommodation or planning for these power outages. My wife is cleaning a new house just rehabbed a couple years ago where owners got rid of the fireplace, and made EVERYTHING dependent on wifi/smart tech, with electric water heater, electric controlled house heating, and no provision for keeping pipes from freezing if a power outage happens in winter. They made house heat management dependent on a nest controller with no way to manually set thermostat, not that that matters if power is out for furnace anyway. Every time the power goes out, we get calls from the owners who went "full smart" in their homes to go out and have to manually reset/restart everything.

With the tech happy "make everything dependent on smart tech" fetish many have, they will have a sharp reality slap in the face one of these upcoming winters where they will have to abandon their homes in an extended storm powerdown.

Even with natural gas, when the San Andreas goes, any day now, most people don't even realize that SouthWest Gas has a mandatory nat gas shutoff to big bear valley, where then they have to go out and physically inspect all gas lines before pressure is restored. How many weeks or months(if we get hammered hard) will that take to restore service? What if that happens this upcoming January? This is why we are going with on-property Propane service. Even If our UTH propane suppliers have problems, you can still go get your own 7 gallon tanks DTH and bring up to hook into your house system, and it is easy to store 4 or 5 of these full tanks on your property to keep your house warm for several months.



People really need to think ahead and prep for the big natural disasters up here to keep safe. 50 gallon drums of potable water, filters to use lake water, food, fire suppression plans, things to keep you secure until things get back to normal. If the big one hits in mid winter, and roads are wiped out for months, how are you going to keep from freezing, literally?

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
doo路hick路ey, Tue Sep 29 2020, 10:39AM

Most excellent mountainart. I was researching doing a dual fuel conversion for the generac, if the gas stations shut down. The well pump runs off of 240v, but water heater is LP. Two fireplaces here.

Battery backup needed for solar array too. Also a 'safe' to code, switch over for the generator to have a whole house plugin/switch swap.

Too many variables, got discouraged.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Airport Razz, Tue Sep 29 2020, 11:06AM

By the time you go through your start up manual and steps the power is usually back on

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Polar 馃寣rbit, Tue Sep 29 2020, 11:57AM

I hate to point out to Socalman that a gas dryer still has an electric motor.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Airport Razz, Tue Sep 29 2020, 12:02PM

Escellent point there PO. Missed that one entirely. Again, good reason to still have gravity furnace

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
doo路hick路ey, Tue Sep 29 2020, 02:06PM

Airport Razz wrote ...

By the time you go through your start up manual and steps the power is usually back on

That happened last time and few times before.
So you know when my cords are out w/gen running. Thank me for power being back on, haha

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
ButlerPeakFire, Wed Sep 30 2020, 05:57AM

Just make sure you let Bear Valley know that you are using a generator. Back feed into the system is a killer for the linemen..

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
AB BikeHikeRun, Wed Sep 30 2020, 07:03AM

We've had a battery backup system (Tesla Powerwall) for over two years now, coupled with solar. There have been plenty of outages here, but we've never had to go without power. Even during the winter, we get enough solar generation to charge the batteries, though I do have to knock snow off the panels if they're really buried.

Wood fires have nice ambience and all, but I'd rather not have to bother with wood all the time, or have to breathe smoke.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
ButlerPeakFire, Wed Sep 30 2020, 07:27AM

Those Tesla batteries are quickly becoming a big problem for Linemen as well. Quite often there is a switch that fails and allows a back feed into the Distribution system. Ferroresonance can occur resulting in a large electrical arch. Please make sure you let the power company know you have this. I literally just left a meeting where this was discussed.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
mountainart, Wed Sep 30 2020, 07:51AM

If you have a physical TPTT switch that you have to throw to change from line power to house power, that problem is eliminated. (think the old fashioned Frankenstein style) big physical 3 position throw old fashioned blade switch where if the handle is straight out nothing is connected, throw up to connect to house, throw down to connect to line. Then there is zero possibility of your power going back up line. It is the new "auto" switches that do not have this physical separation which is the problem.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
mountainart, Wed Sep 30 2020, 07:51AM

Many want the automatic power switch-over functionality, where your home system will automatically switch over in the event of a power outage, so you don't notice the switching. This is great if you need to have uninterrupted power for computers, etc.

Most of you know by my Cabin build thread that I am making everything 18th century vibe, so I don't mind having to actually physically go out to the meter box area to physically have to throw a switch. There will be an inline backup at my computer to cover power loss, and an indicator light at meter panel that will let me know when line power comes back online so I can go out and switch back.

It is a non "standard" system in the sense that because it is a fail safe old school system that modern manufacturers don"t sell because it is too simple and no profit. You actually have to go out and physically throw a 3 position switch (up=line, middle position=nothing connected, lower position=hooked up to house power). I tried explaining this to Paul at BVE, and he couldn't get past the fact that it was a simple fail safe system, and rejected is because it wasn't on their list of "approved bells and whistles computer controlled switching". So I will be installing a "regular" 200 amp meter panel, then running just one main off of that, to an inline physical separation TPTT switch, which disconnects from line power, to connect to house power, then on to a multi breaker house panel.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
ButlerPeakFire, Wed Sep 30 2020, 08:12AM

mountainart wrote ...

If you have a physical TPTT switch that you have to throw to change from line power to house power, that problem is eliminated. (think the old fashioned Frankenstein style) big physical 3 position throw old fashioned blade switch where if the handle is straight out nothing is connected, throw up to connect to house, throw down to connect to line. Then there is zero possibility of your power going back up line. It is the new "auto" s1itches that do not have this physical separation which is the problem.


100% correct Mountain Art! The Tesla Power walls are generally installed with the newer style of "auto" switching and they have had issues with them malfunctioning.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
AB BikeHikeRun, Thu Oct 01 2020, 01:59PM

ButlerPeakFire, that's the first I've heard of Tesla Energy Gateways (what their switching hardware is called) malfunctioning and putting people at risk. Are you aware of actual failures? If this is something I need to be aware of, then I'd appreciate whatever information you can share. Our Powerwalls are actually not authorized by SCE to feed into the grid; they're only supposed to supply our on-site needs. Solar photovoltaic systems, on the other hand, are designed to feed into the grid and are supposed to shut down (in the absence of batteries) when the grid goes down.

That being said, if we have an extended outage, I could simply turn off our main breaker to guarantee that our home/Powerwall/solar system will function as an "island" and not backfeed into the grid. I shouldn't need to do this, but in an abundance of caution, I could do so to.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
ButlerPeakFire, Thu Oct 01 2020, 02:01PM

AB BikeHikeRun wrote ...

ButlerPeakFire, that's the first I've heard of Tesla Energy Gateways (what their switching hardware is called) malfunctioning and putting people at risk. Are you aware of actual failures? If this is something I need to be aware of, then I'd appreciate whatever information you can share. Our Powerwalls are actually not authorized by SCE to feed into the grid; they're only supposed to supply our on-site needs. Solar photovoltaic systems, on the other hand, are designed to feed into the grid and are supposed to shut down (in the absence of batteries) when the grid goes down.

That being said, if we have an extended outage, I could simply turn off our main breaker to guarantee that our home/Powerwall/solar system will function as an "island" and not backfeed into the grid. I shouldn't need to do this, but in an abundance of caution, I could do so to.



Yes we have had several "Stand Down Safety" events due to these power walls (linemen have been injured). At the very least let your energy provider know so they can make a note on your account and on our Live Maps.

They are not supposed to back feed, but when the switching mechanism fails they do and with very high amperage. Amps kill/hurt you much more than the Voltage. The other issue is ferroresonance. This is a bit harder to explain but basically it increases the voltage on the line to a point where the equipment/line failure can occur.

Switching off your breaker is not a bad idea. Generally if the line crew is aware of your power wall and it is causing an issue they can disconnect your service at the source structure, but disconnecting your breaker is a sure fire way to ensure there are no issues down the line caused by your power wall.

Also not 100% sure on this, but if your switch does fail and there are issues down the line resulting in damage or injury you may be personally liable. Some areas it is illegal to back feed into the system...whether you are aware of it or not.


Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
AB BikeHikeRun, Thu Oct 01 2020, 03:57PM

ButlerPeakFire, both the County and our electric utility (SCE) had to approve our Powerwall installation (done by Tesla directly), so by what additional means are you suggesting that we notify them of our setup?

Are you sure that linemen have been injured specifically by Tesla Powerwall systems backfeeding? Again, I'm not aware of this ever happening with Tesla's systems specifically, and many thousands have been installed. Clearly, linemen have been injured by backup systems wrongly backfeeding. However, I can't seem to find anything, anywhere, on the internet (other than here) discussing actual Tesla Powerwall gateway failures that have injured utility workers. Normally, any sort of negative Tesla news seems to get plenty of attention; the mainstream media love to stoke fear in so many ways.

I hope I'm not coming across as overly skeptical, and I appreciate your willingness to share your concerns. At the same time, I don't want to be overly worried about something that's extremely unlikely, and thus choose not to adopt technology that's really helpful. I already prefer to turn off our main breaker during extended outages, to help protect our electronics if nothing else. We're also hoping, at some point, to do a Powerwall installation at my in-laws' home.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
AB BikeHikeRun, Thu Oct 01 2020, 04:05PM

Also, yes, we are not allowed to backfeed into the grid when the grid is down. Only when the grid is operating are we allowed to export our excess solar generation. It's fair to question whether there'd be personal liability in the event of wrongful backfeeding. I would assume the equipment manufacturer (Tesla) would be at least partially liable, particularly during the ten year warranty period. In general, it's good advice to have decent liability insurance, something that may be lacking for many homeowners here if all they have is a CA FAIR Plan policy.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Tibia w6ajo, Thu Oct 01 2020, 10:47PM

Not familiar with a TPTT switch, unless you mean a Double Throw Safety Switch, such as those by Square D / Schneider Electric...
[Click Here]





Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
ButlerPeakFire, Fri Oct 02 2020, 06:03AM

Tibia w6ajo wrote ...

Not familiar with a TPTT switch, unless you mean a Double Throw Safety Switch, such as those by Square D / Schneider Electric...
[Click Here]






The double throw switches are perfectly ok.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
ButlerPeakFire, Fri Oct 02 2020, 06:04AM

AB BikeHikeRun wrote ...

ButlerPeakFire, both the County and our electric utility (SCE) had to approve our Powerwall installation (done by Tesla directly), so by what additional means are you suggesting that we notify them of our setup?

Are you sure that linemen have been injured specifically by Tesla Powerwall systems backfeeding? Again, I'm not aware of this ever happening with Tesla's systems specifically, and many thousands have been installed. Clearly, linemen have been injured by backup systems wrongly backfeeding. However, I can't seem to find anything, anywhere, on the internet (other than here) discussing actual Tesla Powerwall gateway failures that have injured utility workers. Normally, any sort of negative Tesla news seems to get plenty of attention; the mainstream media love to stoke fear in so many ways.

I hope I'm not coming across as overly skeptical, and I appreciate your willingness to share your concerns. At the same time, I don't want to be overly worried about something that's extremely unlikely, and thus choose not to adopt technology that's really helpful. I already prefer to turn off our main breaker during extended outages, to help protect our electronics if nothing else. We're also hoping, at some point, to do a Powerwall installation at my in-laws' home.


Company wide safety concerns are generally not advertised by us. It is an internal discussion. Like I said I had literally just left a meeting about this when I responded earlier. I am just trying to give you a fair warning. No malice intended.


Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
mountainart, Fri Oct 02 2020, 08:01AM

Tibia w6ajo wrote ...

Not familiar with a TPTT switch, unless you mean a Double Throw Safety Switch, such as those by Square D / Schneider Electric...
[Click Here]


I refer to the 3 position blade switch that has all 3 (line, ground, and neutral) New versions have a cast plastic housing, old(antique) ones you are able to see the blades

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
Tibia w6ajo, Fri Oct 02 2020, 02:24PM

Guess I should come clean. Very familiar with double throw safety switches. I'm a retired industrial electrician who worked for very well known multinational conglomerate. Started as a Navy electrician in the early 70s. Had a C-10 back in the late 70s / early 80s, doing heavy industrial electrical control systems for the mining industries.

I just have never heard the abbreviation TPTT switch used before in my almost 50 years as an electrician...

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
doo路hick路ey, Fri Oct 02 2020, 03:38PM

This is all great info guys. I wouldn't say it was a thread hyjack so much.
Quick web search: TPTT ~ Triple 3 Pole Triple Throw 3P3T 9-Pin ( ON-OFF-ON) Toggle Switch. Single Rocker Switch to Switch 3 Circuits.
Tesla is expensive, shheeesh. Been seeing big rebates on tv lately.

Re: Natural Gas vs Electric dryer
AB BikeHikeRun, Fri Oct 02 2020, 08:01PM

doo路hick路ey wrote ...

This is all great info guys. I wouldn't say it was a thread hyjack so much.
Quick web search: TPTT ~ Triple 3 Pole Triple Throw 3P3T 9-Pin ( ON-OFF-ON) Toggle Switch. Single Rocker Switch to Switch 3 Circuits.
Tesla is expensive, shheeesh. Been seeing big rebates on tv lately.

Glad you're not bothered by the "thread hijack"!

Dang it, you're right, Tesla Powerwalls are expensive these days! I just checked their website today, and the prices are higher. When we had ours installed in 2018, they were at least $3k cheaper per Powerwall. I think the current demand is quite high, and not just in the US. Until the end of 2021, they're eligible for the solar tax credit (26% this year and 22% next year) if coupled with a solar PV system. There's also a state program called SGIP that has generous rebates, but the program is kind of screwy and you have to use an installer other than Tesla to have a fair chance of getting a rebate, and most of those third party installers seem to be charging very high prices in order to take advantage of the state money. Honestly, I think this product will do more than fine without government rebates/credits, and I'd prefer lower sticker prices and greater simplicity. Tesla just needs to increase their supply of batteries, as they're working hard to do.