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Socalmountains.com :: Forums :: GENERAL DISCUSSION
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Environmentalists Destroyed California’s Forests

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Skier
Mon Sep 14 2020, 10:16AM

Registered Member #2863
Joined: Sat Mar 17 2012, 09:02AM
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Posts: 1844

Some people love to blame environmentalists for fire suppression but it all started back in 1944. And it had nothing to do with liberals or conservatives. Blame Smokey the Bear if you need to blame someone. [Click Here]


On a side note. Keeping one's posts concise and not rambling about multiple subjects and asking rhetorical questions makes it difficult for others to respond without committing a lot of time to it.

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Skier
Mon Sep 14 2020, 10:22AM

Registered Member #2863
Joined: Sat Mar 17 2012, 09:02AM
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Posts: 1844
I would seriously love to hear someone who thinks logging is the answer to our wildfire problems explain how this is possible. They can't because logging does nothing to prevent fires.

Skier wrote ...

Wildfire currently burning in heavily logged area of California near Lake Oroville.


All those spots are clear cuts.




North Complex (Fire)





[Click Here]


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mountainart
Mon Sep 14 2020, 10:48AM

Registered Member #42113
Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
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Posts: 292
Skier wrote ...


Some people love to blame environmentalists for fire suppression but it all started back in 1944. And it had nothing to do with liberals or conservatives. Blame Smokey the Bear if you need to blame someone. [Click Here]


On a side note. Keeping one's posts concise and not rambling about multiple subjects and asking rhetorical questions makes it difficult for others to respond without committing a lot of time to it.



Please name one, single conservative political group currently that is promoting the current anti forest clearing, hands off agenda that has led to current problems. If you try saying that originally, it was thought to be a good idea by all, so all are to blame, I reject that assertion, as because when it started to become apparent that the smokey campaign started the ball rolling on misguided environmentalism was causing more problems than they prevented, the conservatives in Jerry Browns original 70's govt tried to bring back managed forestry, and were soundly defeated by the liberal backed Sierra club and sister organizations ALL supporting liberal legislators.

Nice try, but fail.
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mountainart
Mon Sep 14 2020, 11:00AM

Registered Member #42113
Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
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Posts: 292
Skier wrote ...

I would seriously love to hear someone who thinks logging is the answer to our wildfire problems explain how this is possible. They can't because logging does nothing to prevent fires.

Skier wrote ...

Wildfire currently burning in heavily logged area of California near Lake Oroville.


All those spots are clear cuts.




North Complex (Fire)





[Click Here]




Clear cut logging with ZERO follow up to keep new tree growth to 40 trees per acre, with the needed additional management to keep first stage heavy ground cover growth that does not occur in healthy forests is to blame.

Logging, with the legislated proscriptions on going back in to manage the new trees growth, as ENFORCED BY state decree, here, and in Oregon are the direct cause of this mess.

I used to live in Montana, building my custom log cabins there, which as a byproduct made me very intimate with the Montana forest service. They do not have this mega fire issue, with over 150 years of history heavily logging all the surrounding forests around Flathead lake. They make fun of the California and Oregon forest rules, which were spearheaded by feel good environmentalist controlled legislatures. Anyone remember the spotted owl issue? The green folk made it illegal to clear the spotted owl habitats of brush growth, so as to not "disturb" their habitat. They did not think of unintended consequences, and when shown in 1996 the university of Oregon study that showed that now the severe undergrowth enabled ther prey (mice, and similar animals) the ability to live under foliage cover caused the owls to mass starve, and have the inability to feed more than 1 young at a time.

Did they listen, no. That is because they refused to do the mature, adult, logical thing, and get rid of their egos and reevaluate their edicts that now as of 2018, reduced their numbers to lowest point.

In Montana, we regularly see logging companies tasked with follow up management every 5 years on average, have to go out to the clear cut zones to remove all the interim undergrowth, and cull all the young trees, growing densely packed together, down to the healthy spacing levels of 1 tree to every 30 to 40 feet. They have to keep doing this until tree growth reaches bottom branch height of 40 feet. the level that healthy fires passing through lo longer are able to jump to tree canopy.

This has been legislated AGAINST in California, and lied about by Newsome refusing to even look at the recent studies by our own Liberal led studies that show the true cause. Please educate yourself, and do google research on this. You are going in right start by trying to pull up facts, which is a great thing
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Skier
Mon Sep 14 2020, 12:10PM

Registered Member #2863
Joined: Sat Mar 17 2012, 09:02AM
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Posts: 1844
Clear cut logging with ZERO follow up to keep new tree growth to 40 trees per acre, with the needed additional management to keep first stage heavy ground cover growth that does not occur in healthy forests is to blame.


True, and an example of how the timber industry is not any better at managing forests than anyone else, not the government, not environmentalists...it's a problem with so many different factors involved yet right now, conservatives are going nuts assigning blame to liberals and environmentalists. Trying to take advantage of peoples emotions with all kinds of nonsense claims, like the title of this thread which belongs in the politics section rather than here. If you ask the timber industry that owns that land, they have everything under control. [Click Here] But they don't.

"AGAIN – PAST LOGGING MAKES A FIRE WORSE"
[Click Here]

This is also a good example of the fact that a huge amount of forest land in the western states are privately owned, so it's up to landowners to "rake" their own forest and how complicated and complex the issue is. There are so many factors involved. The main cause of the fire situation in the Sierra Nevada is 5 years of drought allowed the bark beetle to thrive and cause a mass die off of trees and climate change is creating hotter and drier conditions.
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Squatch
Mon Sep 14 2020, 12:23PM

Registered Member #13843
Joined: Sun Jan 15 2017, 03:54PM
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Posts: 243
It`s true that we have seen more frequent drought conditions, less snow, etc in the west, HOWEVER, global warming has been going on since the beginning of the ice age melt off!

The earth has/is always going through continuous cycles/changes, the lack of forest management and more frequent dry-spells plus the current trend of A-holes lighting fires for a cheap thrills or ignorance or malice has a combined effect that we are now seeing all over the west...

It appears people are most at fault for the wildfires but not for climate reasons!
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mountainart
Mon Sep 14 2020, 12:37PM

Registered Member #42113
Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
:
Posts: 292
Skier wrote ...

Clear cut logging with ZERO follow up to keep new tree growth to 40 trees per acre, with the needed additional management to keep first stage heavy ground cover growth that does not occur in healthy forests is to blame.


True, and an example of how the timber industry is not any better at managing forests than anyone else, not the government, not environmentalists...it's a problem with so many different factors involved yet right now, conservatives are going nuts assigning blame to liberals and environmentalists. Trying to take advantage of peoples emotions with all kinds of nonsense claims, like the title of this thread which belongs in the politics section rather than here. If you ask the timber industry that owns that land, they have everything under control. [Click Here] But they don't.
"AGAIN – PAST LOGGING MAKES A FIRE WORSE"
[Click Here]

Perhaps you did not read what I just posted earlier. The California logging industry is PROHIBITED BY LIBERALS ENACTED LAWS from doing effective post management. If they were allowed to do what Montana, Idaho, and Colorado do, then there would not be these megafire events that destroy tree canopies.

Montana does NOT have this problem with the forests that have been repeatedly clear cut and replanted. California does, with original identical forested areas.

Montana has a forestry husbanding program that enforces undergrowth prevention and thinning of regrowing clearcut areas. Montana has active controlled burns, and debris removal of even virgin forest areas. California killed the logging/forest industry, and actively prohibits the post management practices, leading to overgrowth of unnatural fuel load, which then, as soon as we hit a cyclical dry period, creates uncontrollable firestorms that state resources never took of before inevitable fires occurred.

Why do you blame the logging companies, when you conveniently IGNORE the fact that it is California LAW that prevented the clearing out of the overgrowth?

Saying that it was the logging companies that originated the problem in the first place so are to blame for subsequent laws that prevented the proper management of that land until the new generation of trees could establish, is like blaming someone for building a house with sprinklers on the plans(proper post logging management plans that logging companies WERE DOING ALREADY), Then as the house builder finishes, county refuses to enable sprinklers to do their proper job by shutting off the water(conservancy laws designed to keep all forested areas no longer to be managed by logging companies).

Then when fire hits the house that had its water shut off, blaming the house builder for building in the first place, and conveniently trying to hide that if govt had allowed water service, sprinklers would have done their job, and kept fire mitigated.

Please try to think through this logic.

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Stringfellow
Mon Sep 21 2020, 04:43AM

Stringfellow
Registered Member #280
Joined: Thu Jan 11 2007, 12:24PM
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Posts: 422
There is a really simple explanation to this, and it's nothing to do with politics. Take a look at the NIFC sit report. A 100,000 acre fire in Alaska or Montana might have 4 personnel assigned. What are they doing? Flying over it twice a day to observe. Look at a 100 acre fire in the mountains of southern CA, and how many personnel are assigned? Hundreds. 10 engines, 4 hand crews, 6 aircraft, 3 dozers, and that's just in the first few hours, before it really starts romping. What's the difference? PEOPLE. Once we started moving to steep, wooded areas of CA in the early-mid 20th century, packing wooden houses in among the trees along tiny roads that can hardly fit a fire engine under the best of conditions, there was no choice but to extinguish all fires. Natural, healthy fires in California are a thing of the past. People living in the wildland/urban interface should understand what we're signing up for. Most of CA is semi-arid at best. We're setting temperature records, acres burned records, and lives lost records nearly every year. Prescribed burns have been going on for decades. You can do 100 of them and nobody notices, but if one gets out of control... Katie bar the door. Conditions have to be nearly perfect to start a fire that will burn what you want it to, and NOT burn what you don't. Lot of people looking to place blame on one thing or another, but the simple truth is that as long as people live in these areas, the fires will have to be fought, and as long as they are fought, they won't be carrying out the job they've been doing successfully for eons. We are the wild card.

Let men be wise by instinct if they can, but when this fails be wise by good advice.
Sophocles, Antigone
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wisteria1
Mon Sep 21 2020, 08:50AM
Registered Member #13362
Joined: Wed Aug 17 2016, 09:51AM
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Posts: 43
Stringfellow wrote ...

What's the difference? PEOPLE. Once we started moving to steep, wooded areas of CA in the early-mid 20th century, packing wooden houses in among the trees along tiny roads that can hardly fit a fire engine under the best of conditions, there was no choice but to extinguish all fires. Natural, healthy fires in California are a thing of the past. People living in the wildland/urban interface should understand what we're signing up for.


I think this is VERY well said. Thank you, stringfellow, for such an articulate summary.
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RH_Runner
Mon Sep 21 2020, 12:43PM

Registered Member #13942
Joined: Mon Feb 06 2017, 03:26AM
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Posts: 157
wisteria1 wrote ...

Stringfellow wrote ...

What's the difference? PEOPLE. Once we started moving to steep, wooded areas of CA in the early-mid 20th century, packing wooden houses in among the trees along tiny roads that can hardly fit a fire engine under the best of conditions, there was no choice but to extinguish all fires. Natural, healthy fires in California are a thing of the past. People living in the wildland/urban interface should understand what we're signing up for.


I think this is VERY well said. Thank you, stringfellow, for such an articulate summary.


Totally agree!



I started out with nothing and I still have most of it!
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Dave™
Oct 21 : 08:09pm
Me too, Sportj. I just received this text. "Your ballot for the 2020 General Election was received and will be counted. Thank you for voting!".

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 07:46pm
I got a text that my ballot was counted! Wahoo! So anyone else who is waiting (after using the drop boxes) it took exactly one week.

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 04:42pm
MtnTeach - the ballot boxes aren’t third party. They are official county elections office drop boxes.

MtnTeach
Oct 21 : 04:12pm
Dropped off mines directly at the post office, don't need a 3rd party. Ballottrax worked fine for me!

wisteria1
Oct 21 : 04:09pm
7:30 a.m. Tues - given to mail lady at Crestline Post Office
8:02 a.m. Wed - notified by ballottrax that my ballot had been received by USPS
1:16 p.m. Wed - notified my ballot had been received by SB Registrar of Voters

USPS worked fine!

Humble Daisy
Oct 21 : 03:46pm
I dropped my ballot in the dropbox at the Crestline library a couple of weeks ago, it took about a week for ballot tracker to notify me that my ballot had been received and counted.

Airport Razz
Oct 21 : 03:41pm
Yes, I was so politely informed by the Big Bear Postmaster that putting anything in the box outside is no guarantee it will get processed. They even tried to extend that non-responsibility to the box inside the PO. So basically he was telling me my mail no matter where I put it, will maybe get delivered, depending on how the post office feels that day. Amazing.

SCM ALERT🚨
Oct 21 : 03:40pm
USFS: Volunteers this past Saturday covered 488 graffiti tags, took out 5 illegal campfire rings and removed 187 pounds of trash along Deep Creek and Hesperia Falls.

The forest partnered with the @MojaveDesertLT and the US Army Corps of Engineers.

Great work volunteers! 🤝 [Click Here]

Casadelgado
Oct 21 : 03:40pm
Sport, I believe the only couple I asked said 4 days but I'll text them and ask again. All were impressed with the tracking service.

Kel
Oct 21 : 03:27pm
I dod, however, use the indoor drop at the Post Office rather than an outside box.

Kel
Oct 21 : 03:24pm
Official Absentee ballot instructs us to go to SBCountyElections.com. I dropped mine on 10/17, it was received at the SB County registrar on 10/20.

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 03:19pm
Casadelgado - Did they say how long it took for them to show up as received?

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 03:19pm
Dave - ha ha I don't know why I assumed you dropped them off last Monday! Keep me posted if yours is updated any time soon.

Casadelgado
Oct 21 : 02:14pm
We have 3 friends who used the drop box at the Library and they all have been received by the tracking. Dropping ours off tomorrow.

Rheya
Oct 21 : 01:32pm
We mailed our ballots and got confirmation that they are where they need to be


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