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Socalmountains.com :: Forums :: GENERAL DISCUSSION
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Environmentalists Destroyed California’s Forests

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mountainart
Sat Sep 12 2020, 05:00PM

Registered Member #42113
Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
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Posts: 292
Skier wrote ...

Interesting. Here's another point of view:

Ralph Bloemers
September 10 at 7:28 AM ·
Friends - for 20 years I have spent time in burned landscapes, with fire experts, biologists, foresters and ecologists. I have also visited with home safety experts, firefighters and first responders.
Last year I testified numerous times to the Oregon Wildfire Council about the need for Oregonians to harden their homes to fire.
I have also spent the last three years with Trip Jennings and Sara Quinn making films about fire in the West and the solutions. The feature length film is called Elemental and it is almost complete. The message from the experts is clear.


1) most big fires are driven by drought and wind (climate) not by the amount of fuels or forest conditions. While vegetation and topography are important factors, remember grasslands and shrublands burn too. In CA this year nearly 70 percent of landscapes that burned so far were not forestlands.

2) forest management - thinning, logging, clearing is a shot in the dark and often increases fire danger. Around homes it can help to reduce the immediate risk and provide for defensible space, but in the backcountry or further from homes it makes little to no difference in terms of home safety. And the forest grows back. We do not have enough money to tend 350 million acres, and often the tending is logging that takes the most fire resistant material.

3) in extreme fire weather firefighters just try to help people escape. They don’t have enough wet stuff to put on the red stuff. We need to stop believing that firefighting will save us and put out fires. In Detroit-Idanha, the firefighters fled. In Paradise the first responders told us they would have needed every fire truck from ALL of California in town within 1 hour to be able to save SOME of the homes. The fire hit the town in about 2-3 hours after ignition as it moved very rapidly (3x normal rates) through previously logged and salvaged areas.
AND, most important

4) if we want to protect homes and communities from fire, then we have to harden our homes to fire, prevent ember penetration and ignition. And it is relatively easy and not high cost. Cover vents, clean gutters, hardscape perimeter, use non-flammable materials on the exterior...

As to the long held belief, promoted by industry, that it is a problem in our forests, that logging-management-thinning can solve it — well it does not hold up to scrutiny. Let’s take a look at just one example.
Last night the Bear fire in the northern Sierra Nevada blew up. This area has been heavily logged over the past couple of decades--clearcuts, commercial thinning, "salvage" logging of snags, you name it, mostly on private lands but also quite a bit on National Forests too. The Bear fire just dramatically expanded today when it got to this massive area of heavy logging. The fire is now over 200,000 acres (mostly from last 24 hours), and at least three people have been killed as of now. There will likely be more. This situation is very much like the Camp fire that hit Paradise in terms of the direct threat of recent logging to lives and homes, by contributing, along with the dominant force of extreme weather and climate change, to very rapid rate of fire spread, giving people little time to evacuate.

At this point, anyone--including you and any reporters, agency or university scientists--who is still promoting logging as "fuel reduction", and saying the problem is in our forests, or a lack of firefighting resources — or denying the fact that weather and climate change are the dominant drivers of fire behavior - or not acknowledging the fact that logging is a substantial additional contributor to increased fire spread and intensity, is really just putting people at greater risk.

If you have time, here is a video where the author talks more in depth about the topic. [Click Here]





Absolutely a misdirection by AGW promoting politician. Look at the John Muir photos of our western national forest areas, where there was NEVER any attempt to put out fires, and you see perhaps 40 to 50 trees per acre(as determined at the turn of the century with the USFS surveys of unmolested, no fire fighting efforts and pristine forests) , healthy, and no moonscape fire devastation noted in general forest.. Look at modern pics of same areas and it is choked with trees.

The constant putting out of fires by man is what is letting the modern forests become overgrown with higher than healthy density foreststion. Either remove the hotter burning over densified forest with thinning, clearing, and logging, to remove the high density forestation CAUSED by fires that no longer burn excess vegetation, and all those growing baby trees, cooler and close to the ground,, that because of close proximity to each other, creates an IR oven effect which burns and kills everything, versus removing what nature naturally burns through with regularity, which just chars the outside of tree bark, and is vital to popping open certain trees pinecones for procreating the next generation of young trees..

The AGW crowd say that after a few degrees more, forests will be so hot and dry that we are in danger of permanently burning our forestland to ash. Ask them to show this devastation during last Mauder maximum, when temps were 20+ degrees hotter, and there is no evidence of burned devastation.

Ask any AGW "expert" why, like John and Ken did, and they have no rebuttal. Why do you think that is?

Either remove the unnatural overburden, or let nature do its thing when fires start, and have high fuel load temps which kill all, or have prescribed burns to rid forest of dense undergrowth as needed.

Look at the current great fires that travel through African Savannah and see what HEALTHY land management looks like.

Agree with you on hardening homes against fire, the real solution is to establish defensible space, fireproof home designs(my home I am building is fireproof with size of logs, all metal DragonScale roof which also covers all under-eaves overhangs, treat all exterior wood with borax, pre charcoal exterior wood with iron oxide, which also makes wood surface non combustible, all windows have steel cased shutters, which prevent IR caused fires from spontaneously combusting your interior ,and ZERO avenues for hot gasses to enter, like eaves venting.


Also, as a final thought, google research. "Incidence of forest fire occurrence and acreage burned in global wilderness areas. Well, what do you know, taking the last 50 years data, in Brasil, Peru, Nigeria, Mongolia, Siberia, and ALASKA, there is no rise. That just eviscerates AGW politically based, non Scientific pronouncements of BS "Concensus" that the couple of degrees difference in measured temps over the last half century have nothing to do with the mega fires that basically sterilize whole regions of life. Those fires are almost exclusively happening in the regions where MAN has f#d natures evolved way to keep forests healthy for hundreds of millions of years, through many cyclical global temp swings that were undisputedly much hotter than current levels.

Please, just open your mind and actuallyloook at the raw data, before it gets censored by today's media enabled politicians, which includes radical political groups like the Sierra Club, etc.


Do some independent research, and actually bother to self educate, away from liberal media sources, and you see a completely different picture.
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Rumor Mill
Sun Sep 13 2020, 07:00AM

Registered Member #191
Joined: Tue Dec 05 2006, 06:43AM
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Posts: 3178
Were going hearing it all from the left it's Climate Change


Millennia’s sorry to tell you that there is no Santa Clause, no Easter Bunny, No Tooth Fairy, Have a great day
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mountainart
Sun Sep 13 2020, 07:50AM

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Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
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It was disgusting to see gov Newsome yesterday say that it was all a result of climate change, and not because of 40 years of deliberately putting out every forest fire quickly, and refusing to then go in and remove heavy under burden that would have been regularly removed by small, cooler fires that is natures way of protecting the forest habitat. Such utter ignorance of basic science....... shows in his other decisions recently affecting our state as well.
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MtMan
Sun Sep 13 2020, 08:37AM

Registered Member #110
Joined: Tue Oct 31 2006, 12:51PM
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Posts: 5249
And people keep voting in these (comment deleted by myself, don't want to offend that certain party), sickening.

Shut Up and Fish!
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Nature
Sun Sep 13 2020, 11:35PM

Registered Member #611
Joined: Fri Sep 14 2007, 02:32PM
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Posts: 160
Skier, Thank you for your correct analysis of how climate change is starting to work on our planet. When I saw the chain of events in a documentary, coming our way through climate change, just about a year ago, I thought that’s got to be years down the road. I’m seeing exactly the events they predict coming to fruition. Dried land ripe to burn. Insurance companies will start declaring bankruptcy and refusing to cover areas that “may” be fire prone. Sound familiar? Crops unable to supply enough to feed our world. Ocean water rising. Weather systems becoming more erratic and stronger. People evacuating ocean front areas and moving inland because of flooding. It all seemed so distant but it’s rapidly coming to life. People can deny climate change all they want but it won’t make one bit of difference to our planet which is starting to fight back so it can find s way to recover from the damage the human race has inflicted upon it. Believe or don’t believe. You have no voice to the ears of Mother Nature. If you do believe, vote for those who believe as well.
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mountainart
Mon Sep 14 2020, 04:11AM

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Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
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Nature wrote ...

Skier, Thank you for your correct analysis of how climate change is starting to work on our planet. When I saw the chain of events in a documentary, coming our way through climate change, just about a year ago, I thought that’s got to be years down the road. I’m seeing exactly the events they predict coming to fruition. Dried land ripe to burn. Insurance companies will start declaring bankruptcy and refusing to cover areas that “may” be fire prone. Sound familiar? Crops unable to supply enough to feed our world. Ocean water rising. Weather systems becoming more erratic and stronger. People evacuating ocean front areas and moving inland because of flooding. It all seemed so distant but it’s rapidly coming to life. People can deny climate change all they want but it won’t make one bit of difference to our planet which is starting to fight back so it can find s way to recover from the damage the human race has inflicted upon it. Believe or don’t believe. You have no voice to the ears of Mother Nature. If you do believe, vote for those who believe as well.


Then please explain how in the areas that have seen no human development have no increase in fires. the increase in fires are only in the areas of forestland that have seen aggressive putting out of forest fires in the last 40 years, coupled with aggressive ketting fuel loads grow.

3rd grade logic, not a vague couple of degrees warming, which by AGW logic, would affect ALL global forested areas.

Why is that? I do not deny global warming is real. All you have to do is drive on PCH, and see the old wave berns, especially visible in the areas north of San Diego, where they run about 50 feet above today's sea level. In Earth Sciences classes in college, we were taught that the average earth temps need to rise by over 15 degrees to get the earth back to the riotous greenhouse growth that led to the global jungle condition where global biomass was the highest levels. Why are AGW folk terrified of the earth attaining the highest levels of biodiversity that according to fossil record, happens with cyclical regularity, that we are recovering to after the most recent Mauder minimum?

It is a natural condition for global climate to always change. Are you saying that somehow AGW leaders decided amongst themselves that today's sea levels happen to be the best level for mother earth, or is it that climate change fighters are actually trying to stop mother natures cyclical actions, where they happen to be today, because that is what is best for HUMANS who have decided to build cities on the Pelagio-terro interface (coastal environment)? In all through human history, we have been fairly nomadic, following the environmental changes, building and abandoning settlements as weather and local conditions changed, then humans only very recently decided to make legacy settlements, where the effort to build permanent over generational timeline settlements and cities.

It is only because of this that now the natural cyclical nature of ocean levels, temps (which change arable areas), and weather patterns now are becoming a hindrance to human long term plans to create societies which desire to have STASIS in everything global, so as to not have to be inconvenienced by mother earth from having to change.

One good example is the San Diego border wetlands areas. Environmentalists are fighting tooth and nail to preserve the San Ysidro floodplain from becoming destroyed, as wetlands are sacred. Point out the history of the valley that geological studies show that those wetlands, 400 years ago were a dry forested area, and 6000 years ago was a lush grasslands, and in another epoch will be back underwater, AGAIN, just by looking at the past numerous found cyclical geoligic historical pattern. Then ask why earth's natural rhythms must be stopped, at all costs, in the condition it happens to be, right now.

Why is it that people crying global warming doom want earth to remain as it is, right now, forever? I believe it is because global AGW crowd are actually not environmentalists who love mother earth, but rather global statists who have a romanticized idea that earth as it is now is what is best for THEM, and want to arrest the cyclical development of the earth to where it is right now, so that humans no longer have to be inconvenienced by mother earth's undisputed hotter and cooler rhythms.

The cyclical nature is one of the biggest drives to creating and advancing new species, as forever changing environment causes the mega trends of bio evolution. 99.9 Percent of all species that ever walked the earth are naturally extinct. It is NATURAL for species to compete, and those less able to adapt go extinct, constantly, naturally. AGW folk cry that is a terrible thing.

Everything that AGW crowd call for is the direct fighting AGAINST natural earth processes and cycles.

Irony of it all is that in the name of trying. to "Save the Planet" AGW people are actually trying to arrest the planet from evolving and adapting new species to accommodate global climate change. Ultimate selfish human thinking...."Oh, we like earth EXACTLY as it is RIGHT NOW in it's 4 billion year history, where this average global temp has only presented for 1 percent of overall global temp variations in history, so let's fight to keep the planet from ever changing bact to the other 99 percent normal temps in the future.

Ultimate hypocritical way of humancentric actions to change or kill any future planetary changes that will "inconvenience" humans who no longer wish to live WITH the normal and constant biome changes.


Why has the natural aspect of constant climate change become a dirty word to AGW and climate change resistors? It is more about being selfish, and against earth, and irony is that while they now actively attempt to destroy earth's natural rhythms, they say they are doing this FOR mother earth. Point, for example, is how they bemoan the loss of glaciers, you see blog after blog, and produced videos documenting the loss of glaciers, narrator in a sad voice stating how we will lose these forever and what a tragedy it will be for the polar bears and other species that currently live in the polar biome. Point out that every 16,000 years, all global ice naturally disappears, and then you have green biomes, woolly mammoths, etc that lived in the polar regions, and why is that a bad thing?

They have no answer for their group of planet "protectors" wanting to prevent those areas from becoming green, which is also when the Sahara region returns back to a heavily forested greenbelt, instead of the vast hostile desert it is now. Who gave the AGW crowd the power to arbitrarily say that we should keep things exactly the way they are now?

AGW group are actually AGAINST natural earth change, and are actually global STASISTS.
They should be openly honest about their goals to keep earth just the way it is now, to the detriment of new species creation which evolves from environmental change. And they have no problem controlling and restricting the lives of humankind in order to see this happen all in the name of "saving earth". Saving earth from what, exactly? When you look at it, it is saving earth from changing anymore. Global Stasism.

Supreme selfish, human centered hypocrites.
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Rumor Mill
Mon Sep 14 2020, 08:52AM

Registered Member #191
Joined: Tue Dec 05 2006, 06:43AM
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Posts: 3178
Controlled burns prevent California wildfires, study says. Why aren’t there more?

Read more here: [Click Here]

Experts from Stanford University are calling for more prescribed burns to prevent devastating wildfires in California, pointing to new research that asks why the approach hasn’t been pursued more aggressively in the fire-plagued state.

“We need a colossal expansion of fuel treatments,” said Stanford doctoral student Rebecca Miller, the lead author of the paper published Monday in “Nature Sustainability,” in a statement.

Those “fuel treatments” Miller is referring to include prescribed burns (fires intentionally lit in a controlled setting to clear kindling that could fuel future fires) and vegetation thinning (trimming plant growth that lets wildfires climb into the tree canopy), according to the study. Researchers said those treatments are needed on 20 percent of the state’s land area to slow future wildfires.

But even as fires have ravaged California in recent years — killing dozens and leveling entire neighborhoods — controlled burns haven’t expanded much, researchers said.

To understand what’s stopped prescribed burns, the researchers interviewed legislative aides, state and federal employees, nonprofit leaders, academics and more.

Read more here: [Click Here]



Millennia’s sorry to tell you that there is no Santa Clause, no Easter Bunny, No Tooth Fairy, Have a great day
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AudioGuy
Mon Sep 14 2020, 09:50AM
Registered Member #156367
Joined: Wed Aug 12 2020, 01:28PM
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Posts: 70
Nature wrote ...

Skier, Thank you for your correct analysis of how climate change is starting to work on our planet. When I saw the chain of events in a documentary, coming our way through climate change, just about a year ago, I thought that’s got to be years down the road. I’m seeing exactly the events they predict coming to fruition. Dried land ripe to burn. Insurance companies will start declaring bankruptcy and refusing to cover areas that “may” be fire prone. Sound familiar? Crops unable to supply enough to feed our world. Ocean water rising. Weather systems becoming more erratic and stronger. People evacuating ocean front areas and moving inland because of flooding. It all seemed so distant but it’s rapidly coming to life. People can deny climate change all they want but it won’t make one bit of difference to our planet which is starting to fight back so it can find s way to recover from the damage the human race has inflicted upon it. Believe or don’t believe. You have no voice to the ears of Mother Nature. If you do believe, vote for those who believe as well.


Read up on geoengineering. Connect some dots.

Always looking for microphones, vacuum tubes, music production and recording equipment, old broadcasting equipment, electronic test equipment, large vintage speakers, vintage stereo/audio equipment, and stuff like that...
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mountainart
Mon Sep 14 2020, 09:58AM

Registered Member #42113
Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
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Posts: 292
Yes, once again, the emotional based thinking of certain politically active people and groups who look at any change to nature as EVIL, eg, humans actively going out to clear artificially created heavy undergrowth, conveniently "ignore" that it was their policies of hyper suppression of ANY natural forest fire that caused the mega fire problem in the first place.

It is, in my opinion, all because those politically active green groups attract emotional based mindsets to begin with, who look at any little fire, or controlled burn with horror, unable to logically think past the natural law of mother earth that occasional fires are actually NECESSARY to keep our pacific mountainous biome, which evolved with fire as a necessary part of healthy forest environments.

They refuse to take responsibility, even when shown the facts, that even the forest service and liberal Stanford University cannot refute, and instead try to deflect blame, like the official stance of Newsome refusing to take responsibility and start the path to healing, and instead blame a false flag of global warming, kicking the can of actual fixing the problem ever farther into the future.

Someone must be reading my blog, as it was refreshing to see channel 5 this morning ask the question of how the policies pushed by the Sierra Club of anti forest management, and pro hyper aggressive fire suppression, even in 1wilderness areas which are now showing as being the CAUSE of the recent megafire phenomenon are being denied by california liberal leaders......


when will emotional brained people finally grow up and take responsibility for their actions which hurt us all?
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mountainart
Mon Sep 14 2020, 10:08AM

Registered Member #42113
Joined: Tue Jan 29 2019, 08:25AM
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Posts: 292
AudioGuy wrote ...

Nature wrote ...

Skier, Thank you for your correct analysis of how climate change is starting to work on our planet. When I saw the chain of events in a documentary, coming our way through climate change, just about a year ago, I thought that’s got to be years down the road. I’m seeing exactly the events they predict coming to fruition. Dried land ripe to burn. Insurance companies will start declaring bankruptcy and refusing to cover areas that “may” be fire prone. Sound familiar? Crops unable to supply enough to feed our world. Ocean water rising. Weather systems becoming more erratic and stronger. People evacuating ocean front areas and moving inland because of flooding. It all seemed so distant but it’s rapidly coming to life. People can deny climate change all they want but it won’t make one bit of difference to our planet which is starting to fight back so it can find s way to recover from the damage the human race has inflicted upon it. Believe or don’t believe. You have no voice to the ears of Mother Nature. If you do believe, vote for those who believe as well.


Read up on geoengineering. Connect some dots.

Yes, the active attempt at engineering stasis based expansion and progress, into areas that for human history were always in natural evolution and change, to try to make areas more habitable to people, as things wish to remain currently.

At the expense of earth's natural ever changing and adapting biome. I'm sure that nature, when the Siberian Traps mega volcanism events , or asteroid impacts radically forced biomes to evolve and adapt, would have had an easier time just staying the course. Of course, then Mammals would not be ruling the planet today, instead of reptiles/dinosaurs. Dinosaurs adapted, and today we have the incredible bird genus. What will our earth's biome look like in a million years if the earth is forced to remain exactly as it is today? And why would that be a better thing than the possible evolution of our biome into something new and different? Who made the humancentric decision that this is an evil that must be stopped at all costs, even up to and including agenda 21 which advocates forced murdering of billions of souls, to keep earth as it is now?


Liberals have no answer for this, and when you point out the biggest proponents of fighting global warming are the very same ones making a financial killing off of the movement, are the very same hypocrites living jet setting lives of do as I say, not as I do....(Al Gore, and related political crowd)
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Dave™
Oct 21 : 08:09pm
Me too, Sportj. I just received this text. "Your ballot for the 2020 General Election was received and will be counted. Thank you for voting!".

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 07:46pm
I got a text that my ballot was counted! Wahoo! So anyone else who is waiting (after using the drop boxes) it took exactly one week.

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 04:42pm
MtnTeach - the ballot boxes aren’t third party. They are official county elections office drop boxes.

MtnTeach
Oct 21 : 04:12pm
Dropped off mines directly at the post office, don't need a 3rd party. Ballottrax worked fine for me!

wisteria1
Oct 21 : 04:09pm
7:30 a.m. Tues - given to mail lady at Crestline Post Office
8:02 a.m. Wed - notified by ballottrax that my ballot had been received by USPS
1:16 p.m. Wed - notified my ballot had been received by SB Registrar of Voters

USPS worked fine!

Humble Daisy
Oct 21 : 03:46pm
I dropped my ballot in the dropbox at the Crestline library a couple of weeks ago, it took about a week for ballot tracker to notify me that my ballot had been received and counted.

Airport Razz
Oct 21 : 03:41pm
Yes, I was so politely informed by the Big Bear Postmaster that putting anything in the box outside is no guarantee it will get processed. They even tried to extend that non-responsibility to the box inside the PO. So basically he was telling me my mail no matter where I put it, will maybe get delivered, depending on how the post office feels that day. Amazing.

SCM ALERT🚨
Oct 21 : 03:40pm
USFS: Volunteers this past Saturday covered 488 graffiti tags, took out 5 illegal campfire rings and removed 187 pounds of trash along Deep Creek and Hesperia Falls.

The forest partnered with the @MojaveDesertLT and the US Army Corps of Engineers.

Great work volunteers! 🤝 [Click Here]

Casadelgado
Oct 21 : 03:40pm
Sport, I believe the only couple I asked said 4 days but I'll text them and ask again. All were impressed with the tracking service.

Kel
Oct 21 : 03:27pm
I dod, however, use the indoor drop at the Post Office rather than an outside box.

Kel
Oct 21 : 03:24pm
Official Absentee ballot instructs us to go to SBCountyElections.com. I dropped mine on 10/17, it was received at the SB County registrar on 10/20.

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 03:19pm
Casadelgado - Did they say how long it took for them to show up as received?

Sportyj
Oct 21 : 03:19pm
Dave - ha ha I don't know why I assumed you dropped them off last Monday! Keep me posted if yours is updated any time soon.

Casadelgado
Oct 21 : 02:14pm
We have 3 friends who used the drop box at the Library and they all have been received by the tracking. Dropping ours off tomorrow.

Rheya
Oct 21 : 01:32pm
We mailed our ballots and got confirmation that they are where they need to be


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